[MLA] AES71 comments

Tue Jun 5 23:18:37 CEST 2018

We're not there with metadata. Maybe this is something this group could
focus on.

AES71 should do the right thing if there is metadata. I believe it wants to
but is lacking specific recommendations for how players use metadata.

AES71 should do something reasonable in the absence of metadata. What it
recommends in this case is delivery of -23/-24 LUFS material to portables.
As per the tests that AGOTTVS did (we've done some of this too), listeners
are going to want to turn their device's volume all the way up. They're not
going to be able to make out dialog in loud listening environments. When
they receive a text message they will get blasted by the notification sound.

My concern with this is that platform providers are going to implement it,
listen to it and reject it. They will then each implement a higher target
level of their own choosing and the loudness war will continue.

Kevin

On Jun 5, 2018 10:33 AM, "Bob Katz" <bobkatz at digido.com> wrote:

Well, without metadata I don't see a good solution :-(  I only see
conflicts.

Bob

On 6/4/18 5:36 PM, Kevin Gross wrote:

I would estimate that about a quarter of this standard is explicitly about
portable devices and applications. We should also expect the trend of
stationary application becoming portable to continue. Your cell phone or
tablet is your OTT box in increasing cases. My daughters' generation
watches most of their TV and listens to most of their music on portable
devices. I don't know where the cart is but the horse is out of the barn.

Kevin Gross - AVA Networks

On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 9:45 AM, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com> wrote:

> Dear Kevin: We are all aware of the conflicts involved. I occasionally
> read the AGOTTV5 reports but got lazy about it, my bad.
>
> Since this is primarily intended for OTT boxes and portable has not been
> mentioned, I hope there is not a big conflict. Music will be turned down to
> -23 in the OTT boxes. Sooner or later we will have to address this, but
> until metadata is standardized it's putting the cart before the horse. I'm
> concentrating on helping us get music streaming services in line, and then
> eventually we'll have to reconcile things, but until metadata is
> standardized I doubt we can solve the conflict with a document other than
> recognizing that a conflict exists.
>
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> On 6/3/18 5:17 PM, Kevin Gross wrote:
>
> I don't know if any of you have been following or working in the AES's
> AGOTTVS initiative. This group is working on loudness for over the top
> (OTT) and online video distribution (OVD). They have produced a standards
> document that will come out for public comment soon as AES71. The
> recommendations are reasonable - produce, transmit and use metadata where
> possible, use BS.1770 with -23 or -24 LUFS target.
>
> There is, however, a large portable aspect to these topics and the line
> between OVD and music loudness is not very crisp (YouTube is everyone's
> favorite music streaming service). In these cases the -23 LUFS is at odds
> with the -16 LUFS recommendation in the AES TD1004 recommendation. -16 LUFS
> does appear in the AES71 draft in what appears to be a "not to exceed under
> any circumstances" specification.
>
> Aside from the potential problems connecting these recommendations, I see
> problems with a -23 LUFS target for portable applications. We've discussed
> limitations of portable devices and environments here and I know we don't
> all agree but we have seen evidence that this is not loud enough for
> certain hardware and situations and regulations.
>
> AGOTTVS did do some experiments on this and the findings were that were
> that -23 didn't work for everyone in all scenarios and that more testing
> was needed. I don't know how they got from this to a -23 recommendation,
> but they did.
>
> As an officer in AES standards, I have reviewed the draft and submitted
> some comments to clean up some definitions and other inconsistencies and
> underspecification. I'm not sure how to broach the subject of an
> unrealistic target level recommendation. I was hoping someone here could
> talk me through or talk me down from this.
>
> Kevin Gross - AVA Networks
>
>
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>
> --
>
>
> If you want good sound on your album, come to
> Bob Katz 407-831-0233 DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
> Author: *Mastering Audio              *Digital Domain Website <http://www.digido.com/>
>
> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>
>
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-- 

If you want good sound on your album, come to
Bob Katz 407-831-0233 DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
Author: *Mastering Audio              *Digital Domain Website
<http://www.digido.com/>

No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

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