[MLA] AES71 comments
Bob Katz
bobkatz at digido.com
Wed Jun 6 00:02:03 CEST 2018
Yes, it's a mess. And designing a fall back to -23 in this day and age
is a real problem. And you are correct about the notification sound
issue! Even on IOS I had to struggle to keep the bluetooth "ding" from
being too loud compared to the navigation speech. And so music is even
worse. Apple tries to make things "easy" but the customization choices
get buried.
Here's an idea:
Maybe the solution for fallback in the absence of metadata on portable
devices we recommend a gain boost of 7 dB with a protection limiter.
Since it's music it's likely to have a PLR of less than 16 dB so if it
was normalized to -23 it would hardly trigger the limiter. But without
metadata how do you know it's music? And if they normalize regular
program to -23 it will be too low for many portable devices, also.
Shit (excuse my French),
Bob
On 6/5/18 5:18 PM, Kevin Gross wrote:
> We're not there with metadata. Maybe this is something this group
> could focus on.
>
> AES71 should do the right thing if there is metadata. I believe it
> wants to but is lacking specific recommendations for how players use
> metadata.
>
> AES71 should do something reasonable in the absence of metadata. What
> it recommends in this case is delivery of -23/-24 LUFS material to
> portables. As per the tests that AGOTTVS did (we've done some of this
> too), listeners are going to want to turn their device's volume all
> the way up. They're not going to be able to make out dialog in loud
> listening environments. When they receive a text message they will get
> blasted by the notification sound.
>
> My concern with this is that platform providers are going to implement
> it, listen to it and reject it. They will then each implement a higher
> target level of their own choosing and the loudness war will continue.
>
> Kevin
>
> On Jun 5, 2018 10:33 AM, "Bob Katz" <bobkatz at digido.com
> <mailto:bobkatz at digido.com>> wrote:
>
> Well, without metadata I don't see a good solution :-( I only see
> conflicts.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> On 6/4/18 5:36 PM, Kevin Gross wrote:
>> I would estimate that about a quarter of this standard is
>> explicitly about portable devices and applications. We should
>> also expect the trend of stationary application becoming portable
>> to continue. Your cell phone or tablet is your OTT box in
>> increasing cases. My daughters' generation watches most of their
>> TV and listens to most of their music on portable devices. I
>> don't know where the cart is but the horse is out of the barn.
>>
>> Kevin Gross - AVA Networks
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 9:45 AM, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com
>> <mailto:bobkatz at digido.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Kevin: We are all aware of the conflicts involved. I
>> occasionally read the AGOTTV5 reports but got lazy about it,
>> my bad.
>>
>> Since this is primarily intended for OTT boxes and portable
>> has not been mentioned, I hope there is not a big conflict.
>> Music will be turned down to -23 in the OTT boxes. Sooner or
>> later we will have to address this, but until metadata is
>> standardized it's putting the cart before the horse. I'm
>> concentrating on helping us get music streaming services in
>> line, and then eventually we'll have to reconcile things, but
>> until metadata is standardized I doubt we can solve the
>> conflict with a document other than recognizing that a
>> conflict exists.
>>
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>>
>> On 6/3/18 5:17 PM, Kevin Gross wrote:
>>> I don't know if any of you have been following or working in
>>> the AES's AGOTTVS initiative. This group is working on
>>> loudness for over the top (OTT) and online video
>>> distribution (OVD). They have produced a standards document
>>> that will come out for public comment soon as AES71. The
>>> recommendations are reasonable - produce, transmit and use
>>> metadata where possible, use BS.1770 with -23 or -24 LUFS
>>> target.
>>>
>>> There is, however, a large portable aspect to these topics
>>> and the line between OVD and music loudness is not very
>>> crisp (YouTube is everyone's favorite music streaming
>>> service). In these cases the -23 LUFS is at odds with the
>>> -16 LUFS recommendation in the AES TD1004 recommendation.
>>> -16 LUFS does appear in the AES71 draft in what appears to
>>> be a "not to exceed under any circumstances" specification.
>>>
>>> Aside from the potential problems connecting these
>>> recommendations, I see problems with a -23 LUFS target for
>>> portable applications. We've discussed limitations of
>>> portable devices and environments here and I know we don't
>>> all agree but we have seen evidence that this is not loud
>>> enough for certain hardware and situations and regulations.
>>>
>>> AGOTTVS did do some experiments on this and the findings
>>> were that were that -23 didn't work for everyone in all
>>> scenarios and that more testing was needed. I don't know how
>>> they got from this to a -23 recommendation, but they did.
>>>
>>> As an officer in AES standards, I have reviewed the draft
>>> and submitted some comments to clean up some definitions and
>>> other inconsistencies and underspecification. I'm not sure
>>> how to broach the subject of an unrealistic target level
>>> recommendation. I was hoping someone here could talk me
>>> through or talk me down from this.
>>>
>>> Kevin Gross - AVA Networks
>>>
>>>
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>>
>> --
>>
>> If you want good sound on your album, come to Bob Katz
>> 407-831-0233 DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO Author:
>> *Mastering Audio *Digital Domain Website
>> <http://www.digido.com/> No trees were killed in the sending
>> of this message. However a large number of electrons were
>> terribly inconvenienced.
>>
>>
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>>
>
> --
>
> If you want good sound on your album, come to Bob Katz
> 407-831-0233 DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO Author: *Mastering
> Audio *Digital Domain Website <http://www.digido.com/> No trees
> were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
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>
>
--
If you want good sound on your album, come to Bob Katz 407-831-0233
DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO Author: *Mastering Audio *Digital Domain
Website <http://www.digido.com/> No trees were killed in the sending of
this message. However a large number of electrons were terribly
inconvenienced.
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