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<p>Yes, it's a mess. And designing a fall back to -23 in this day
and age is a real problem. And you are correct about the
notification sound issue! Even on IOS I had to struggle to keep
the bluetooth "ding" from being too loud compared to the
navigation speech. And so music is even worse. Apple tries to make
things "easy" but the customization choices get buried. <br>
</p>
<p>Here's an idea:<br>
</p>
<p>Maybe the solution for fallback in the absence of metadata on
portable devices we recommend a gain boost of 7 dB with a
protection limiter. Since it's music it's likely to have a PLR of
less than 16 dB so if it was normalized to -23 it would hardly
trigger the limiter. But without metadata how do you know it's
music? And if they normalize regular program to -23 it will be too
low for many portable devices, also. <br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Shit (excuse my French),</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Bob</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/5/18 5:18 PM, Kevin Gross wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CALw1_Q3kAsLDbHD4sDt1an08aoWMSDtWVbh8f7f7gG57WCARJA@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="auto">We're not there with metadata. Maybe this is
something this group could focus on.
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">AES71 should do the right thing if there is
metadata. I believe it wants to but is lacking specific
recommendations for how players use metadata. <br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">AES71 should do something reasonable in the
absence of metadata. What it recommends in this case is
delivery of -23/-24 LUFS material to portables. As per the
tests that AGOTTVS did (we've done some of this too),
listeners are going to want to turn their device's volume
all the way up. They're not going to be able to make out
dialog in loud listening environments. When they receive a
text message they will get blasted by the notification
sound.<br>
<br>
<div data-smartmail="gmail_signature" dir="auto">
<div dir="auto"
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">My
concern with this is that platform providers are going
to implement it, listen to it and reject it. They will
then each implement a higher target level of their own
choosing and the loudness war will continue.</div>
<div dir="auto"
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial"><br>
</div>
Kevin</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Jun 5, 2018 10:33 AM, "Bob Katz"
<<a href="mailto:bobkatz@digido.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">bobkatz@digido.com</a>> wrote:<br
type="attribution">
<blockquote class="m_-7521472803717460812quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<p>Well, without metadata I don't see a good solution
:-( I only see conflicts. <br>
</p>
<div class="m_-7521472803717460812signature-text"> </div>
<div class="m_-7521472803717460812signature-text">
<p>Bob</p>
</div>
<div class="m_-7521472803717460812elided-text">
<p><br>
</p>
<br>
<div
class="m_-7521472803717460812m_417130021349975112moz-cite-prefix">On
6/4/18 5:36 PM, Kevin Gross wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">I would estimate that about a quarter
of this standard is explicitly about portable
devices and applications. We should also expect
the trend of stationary application becoming
portable to continue. Your cell phone or tablet is
your OTT box in increasing cases. My daughters'
generation watches most of their TV and listens to
most of their music on portable devices. I don't
know where the cart is but the horse is out of the
barn.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div
class="m_-7521472803717460812m_417130021349975112gmail_signature"
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">Kevin Gross - AVA Networks</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at
9:45 AM, Bob Katz <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:bobkatz@digido.com"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">bobkatz@digido.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>Dear Kevin: We are all aware of the
conflicts involved. I occasionally read
the AGOTTV5 reports but got lazy about it,
my bad. <br>
</p>
<p>Since this is primarily intended for OTT
boxes and portable has not been mentioned,
I hope there is not a big conflict. Music
will be turned down to -23 in the OTT
boxes. Sooner or later we will have to
address this, but until metadata is
standardized it's putting the cart before
the horse. I'm concentrating on helping us
get music streaming services in line, and
then eventually we'll have to reconcile
things, but until metadata is standardized
I doubt we can solve the conflict with a
document other than recognizing that a
conflict exists.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Bob</p>
<div>
<div
class="m_-7521472803717460812m_417130021349975112gmail-h5">
<p><br>
</p>
<br>
<div
class="m_-7521472803717460812m_417130021349975112gmail-m_-1721410043051234803moz-cite-prefix">On
6/3/18 5:17 PM, Kevin Gross wrote:<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div
class="m_-7521472803717460812m_417130021349975112gmail-h5">
<div dir="ltr">I don't know if any of
you have been following or working
in the AES's AGOTTVS initiative.
This group is working on loudness
for over the top (OTT) and online
video distribution (OVD). They have
produced a standards document that
will come out for public comment
soon as AES71. The recommendations
are reasonable - produce, transmit
and use metadata where possible, use
BS.1770 with -23 or -24 LUFS target.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There is, however, a large
portable aspect to these topics
and the line between OVD and music
loudness is not very crisp
(YouTube is everyone's favorite
music streaming service). In these
cases the -23 LUFS is at odds with
the -16 LUFS recommendation in the
AES TD1004 recommendation. -16
LUFS does appear in the AES71
draft in what appears to be a "not
to exceed under any circumstances"
specification.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Aside from the potential
problems connecting these
recommendations, I see problems
with a -23 LUFS target for
portable applications. We've
discussed limitations of portable
devices and environments here and
I know we don't all agree but we
have seen evidence that this is
not loud enough for certain
hardware and situations and
regulations. </div>
<div><span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">AGOTTVS<span> did
do some experiments on this
and the findings were that
were that -23 didn't work for
everyone in all scenarios and
that more testing was needed.
I don't know how they got from
this to a -23 recommendation,
but they did.</span></span></div>
<div><span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline"><span><br>
</span></span></div>
<div><span
style="text-align:start;text-indent:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">As
an officer in AES standards, I
have reviewed the draft and
submitted some comments to clean
up some definitions and other
inconsistencies and
underspecification. I'm not sure
how to broach the subject of an
unrealistic target level
recommendation. I was hoping
someone here could talk me
through or talk me down from
this.</span></div>
<div>
<div><br clear="all">
<div>
<div
class="m_-7521472803717460812m_417130021349975112gmail-m_-1721410043051234803gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">Kevin Gross -
AVA Networks</div>
</div>
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If you want good sound on your album, come to
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Author: <b>Mastering Audio </b></font><font face="Courier">
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<pre class="m_-7521472803717460812m_417130021349975112moz-signature" cols="80"><font face="Courier">
If you want good sound on your album, come to
Bob Katz <span id="gc-number-7" class="gc-cs-link" title="Call with Google Voice">407-831-0233</span> </font><font face="Courier">DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
Author: <b>Mastering Audio </b></font><font face="Courier">
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If you want good sound on your album, come to
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