<div dir="ltr"><div dir="auto">We're not there with metadata. Maybe this is something this group could focus on. <div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">AES71 should do the right thing if there is metadata. I believe it wants to but is lacking specific recommendations for how players use metadata. <br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">AES71 should do something reasonable in the absence of metadata. What it recommends in this case is delivery of -23/-24 LUFS material to portables. As per the tests that AGOTTVS did (we've done some of this too), listeners are going to want to turn their device's volume all the way up. They're not going to be able to make out dialog in loud listening environments. When they receive a text message they will get blasted by the notification sound.<br><br><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature" dir="auto">
<div dir="auto" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">My concern with this is that platform providers are going to implement it, listen to it and reject it. They will then each implement a higher target level of their own choosing and the loudness war will continue.</div><div dir="auto" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial"><br></div>Kevin</div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Jun 5, 2018 10:33 AM, "Bob Katz" <<a href="mailto:bobkatz@digido.com" target="_blank">bobkatz@digido.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="m_-7521472803717460812quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<p>Well, without metadata I don't see a good solution :-( I only
see conflicts. <br></p><div class="m_-7521472803717460812signature-text">
</div><p></p><div class="m_-7521472803717460812signature-text">
<p>Bob</p></div><div class="m_-7521472803717460812elided-text">
<p><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="m_-7521472803717460812m_417130021349975112moz-cite-prefix">On 6/4/18 5:36 PM, Kevin Gross wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">I would estimate that about a quarter of this
standard is explicitly about portable devices and applications.
We should also expect the trend of stationary application
becoming portable to continue. Your cell phone or tablet is your
OTT box in increasing cases. My daughters' generation watches
most of their TV and listens to most of their music on portable
devices. I don't know where the cart is but the horse is out of
the barn.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div class="m_-7521472803717460812m_417130021349975112gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">Kevin Gross - AVA Networks</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 9:45 AM, Bob
Katz <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:bobkatz@digido.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">bobkatz@digido.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>Dear Kevin: We are all aware of the conflicts involved.
I occasionally read the AGOTTV5 reports but got lazy
about it, my bad. <br>
</p>
<p>Since this is primarily intended for OTT boxes and
portable has not been mentioned, I hope there is not a
big conflict. Music will be turned down to -23 in the
OTT boxes. Sooner or later we will have to address this,
but until metadata is standardized it's putting the cart
before the horse. I'm concentrating on helping us get
music streaming services in line, and then eventually
we'll have to reconcile things, but until metadata is
standardized I doubt we can solve the conflict with a
document other than recognizing that a conflict exists.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Bob</p>
<div>
<div class="m_-7521472803717460812m_417130021349975112gmail-h5">
<p><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="m_-7521472803717460812m_417130021349975112gmail-m_-1721410043051234803moz-cite-prefix">On
6/3/18 5:17 PM, Kevin Gross wrote:<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div class="m_-7521472803717460812m_417130021349975112gmail-h5">
<div dir="ltr">I don't know if any of you have been
following or working in the AES's AGOTTVS
initiative. This group is working on loudness for
over the top (OTT) and online video distribution
(OVD). They have produced a standards document
that will come out for public comment soon as
AES71. The recommendations are reasonable -
produce, transmit and use metadata where possible,
use BS.1770 with -23 or -24 LUFS target.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There is, however, a large portable aspect to
these topics and the line between OVD and music
loudness is not very crisp (YouTube is
everyone's favorite music streaming service). In
these cases the -23 LUFS is at odds with the -16
LUFS recommendation in the AES TD1004
recommendation. -16 LUFS does appear in the
AES71 draft in what appears to be a "not to
exceed under any circumstances" specification.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Aside from the potential problems connecting
these recommendations, I see problems with a -23
LUFS target for portable applications. We've
discussed limitations of portable devices and
environments here and I know we don't all agree
but we have seen evidence that this is not loud
enough for certain hardware and situations and
regulations. </div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">AGOTTVS<span> did
do some experiments on this and the findings
were that were that -23 didn't work for
everyone in all scenarios and that more
testing was needed. I don't know how they
got from this to a -23 recommendation, but
they did.</span></span></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline"><span><br>
</span></span></div>
<div><span style="text-align:start;text-indent:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">As
an officer in AES standards, I have reviewed
the draft and submitted some comments to clean
up some definitions and other
inconsistencies and underspecification. I'm
not sure how to broach the subject of an
unrealistic target level recommendation. I was
hoping someone here could talk me through or
talk me down from this.</span></div>
<div>
<div><br clear="all">
<div>
<div class="m_-7521472803717460812m_417130021349975112gmail-m_-1721410043051234803gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">Kevin Gross - AVA Networks</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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<div class="m_-7521472803717460812m_417130021349975112gmail-m_-1721410043051234803moz-signature">--
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<pre class="m_-7521472803717460812m_417130021349975112gmail-m_-1721410043051234803moz-signature" cols="80"><font face="Courier">
If you want good sound on your album, come to
Bob Katz <span id="gc-number-6" class="gc-cs-link" title="Call with Google Voice">407-831-0233</span> </font><font face="Courier">DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
Author: <b>Mastering Audio </b></font><font face="Courier">
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<pre class="m_-7521472803717460812m_417130021349975112moz-signature" cols="80"><font face="Courier">
If you want good sound on your album, come to
Bob Katz <span id="gc-number-7" class="gc-cs-link" title="Call with Google Voice">407-831-0233</span> </font><font face="Courier">DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
Author: <b>Mastering Audio </b></font><font face="Courier">
<a href="http://www.digido.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">Digital Domain Website</a>
No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
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