[MLA] AES paper
Bob Katz
bobkatz at digido.com
Tue Jul 25 18:26:02 CEST 2017
My "progress" report will be rather short, mostly regarding proposed
targets for podcast, that's about it.
I would like to suggest a short roundtable discussion including Ian (if
he is able to come), Eelco, and myself to discuss the ramifications of
album normalization. One of us could prepare a short power point. I
think it's important to underline and clearly define the terminology.
For example, I'm struggling to try to explain the meaning of "no upward
normalization". We have to find a good terminology to define
"normalization that would never cause clipping". I don't like the term
"Clip prevention" as it is a dangerous term that could imply peak
limiting. I am fundamentally against adding peak limiting for
already-mastered music.
I realize Eelco might want to talk about NORM-L and how it prevents the
need for any target but I fear it going over the head of the audience.
How about a separate poster session for that, Eelco?
We could discuss lots else, for example, the overshoot that occurs after
encoding, the evils of transcoding, etc.
Best wishes,
Bob
On 7/24/17 6:01 PM, Eelco Grimm wrote:
> Hi Kevin,
>
> We can make it smaller, no problem. Cinema loudness is already covered
> at large in another workshop, so we can skip that for sure. I think
> the two most important topics are my Tidal research and a presentation
> from Ian or Bob about how to make optimal use of the new -14 LUFS
> 'standard'. The PSR meter can be a part of that. The AGOTTVS update
> can focus on podcasts or anything else that's relevant. Or
> alternatively Thomas may present something. We should indeed have a
> discussion about the best introduction talk from you, we will find
> something appropriate. Francis gave me the workshop chair names
> (Jonathan Whiner is one of them!), I will send them a message with you
> on CC.
>
> Cheers,
> Eelco
>
>
>
>> The workshop I had proposed to chair was a bit different, smaller and
>> focused on loudness normalization
>>
>> 1. Your Tidal presentation
>> 2. Update from Bob Katz on streaming loudness recommendations
>> 3. Update from someone working in the AGOTTVS group
>> 4. Loudness normalization in cinema?
>>
>> I could do an overview introduction about loudness normalization
>> touching on existing systems: Sound Check, Dialnorm, ReplayGain,
>> BS.1770, R128, ATSC A/85
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 4:52 AM, Ian Shepherd
>> <ian at mastering-media.co.uk <mailto:ian at mastering-media.co.uk>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Just to say that in theory I’d be happy to do a presentation with
>> the title Eelco suggests, assuming I’m in NY at the right time.
>> Currently my plan is to arrive late afternoon on Wednesday, and
>> leave on Friday night. I’m already doing a short presentation on
>> streaming loudness as part of Bob’s mastering workshop on Friday
>> afternoon, so it will depend on timing, as well.
>>
>> Ian
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 23 Jul 2017, at 23:29, Grimm | Eelco <eelco at grimmaudio.com
>>> <mailto:eelco at grimmaudio.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Kevin,
>>>
>>> You wrote about our possible loudness workshop during AES 143rd:
>>> "I can volunteer to chair it if that's agreeable to everyone."
>>> and since there is no time to loose, I love to accept your offer.
>>>
>>> Since I did not know the name of the workshops chair and I could
>>> not find it on the AES website, I just wrote a message to the
>>> paper chairs Braxton Boren and Areti Andreopoulou to ask me to
>>> connect you and me to the workshops chair. In case you already
>>> have a direct lead to the workshops chair, please let him (and
>>> Braxton and Areti) know. We need to apply for a workshop time
>>> slot asap.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately I have very little time before I leave on holidays
>>> (Thursday). So I hope you all at MLA can help me a bit to
>>> assemble the framework of this workshop. The working title of
>>> the workshop that I have in mind is: “The Loudness War Has
>>> Ended, Now What?”
>>>
>>> I imagine a program with the following topics:
>>> 1. My presentation about the "Recommendation for loudness
>>> normalization by Music Streaming Services" (like I did in Berlin)
>>> 2. "Mastering after the loudness war". Ian Shepherd could do
>>> this, or Bob Katz (I recall that Ian is not in New York all four
>>> days). NB Care should be taken that this topic has not too much
>>> overlap with the mastering workshop of Bob Ludwig, but I guess
>>> there's enough stuff to fill at least two sessions...
>>> 2b. Ian or Bob may show the PSR meters that Ian, Nugen, RTW and
>>> Grimm Audio will introduce during a poster session at AES NY.
>>> 3. "Loudness normalization of Podcasts". Bob Katz, please let us
>>> know if you think this is a good topic for this workshop. I
>>> think the SC-02-12 discussion about a target level of -18 LUFS
>>> is interesting enough to share.
>>> 4. Thomas Lund may have a presentation, but we have not heard
>>> from him yet.
>>>
>>> My presentation takes 30 min. Workshops are usually 1.5 hours.
>>> We should be able to fill that with high quality presentations.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Eelco
>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> If there is no music loudness workshop yet, I guess we should
>>>> organize one. Chances are high that by October both Tidal and
>>>> Spotify, and - who knows - Apple, are using album style
>>>> normalization on by default. That would really mean the end of
>>>> the loudness war and we need to celebrate that I guess. Topics
>>>> could be:
>>>>
>>>> 1. My Tidal research, showing why -14 LUFS and Album
>>>> Normalization is the way to go for mobile (and lower levels in
>>>> stationary situations of course).
>>>> 2. What does the end of the loudness war mean for music
>>>> mastering? Ian Shepherd could do a presentation about
>>>> "mastering after the loudness war", but I am sure Bob Katz can
>>>> do it too. Care should be taken that this does not overlap with
>>>> the mastering workshop of course. Bob Ludwig, do you have an
>>>> idea about how to avoid that?
>>>> 3. We could show the new 'PSR' standard meter that Ian, Nugen,
>>>> RTW, TC and Grimm Audio intend to present at a joint poster
>>>> session in New York.
>>>> 4. Maybe Thomas has some interesting topic again? You deserve
>>>> to be on stage now things are finally moving.
>>>> 5. Possibly an update about podcasts from SC-02-12. Perhaps a
>>>> bit off-topic, but it is very interesting to see that they need
>>>> a lower target level (-18 LUFS on mobile) for voice only...
>>>> 6. .... (please add proposals)
>>>>
>>>> I am chairing a workshop on cinema loudness already, so if
>>>> someone else from MLA could take the chair position, I would be
>>>> glad...
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Eelco
>>>>>
>>>>> In other words, Kevin, a combined loudness workshop? Thomas
>>>>> has run his "tribunal" many times in the past.... what would
>>>>> make it different from the panels he's run? Someone has to
>>>>> chair this workshop.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 7/20/17 2:51 PM, Kevin Gross wrote:
>>>>>> I would plan on publishing your paper at the European AES in
>>>>>> 2018. We should give ourselves time to to a reasonable job of
>>>>>> this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your presentation in Berlin was well received and I would
>>>>>> hope the workshop chair could find a place for it in the NY
>>>>>> convention as a tutorial or workshop. If we can find two
>>>>>> other new 30-minute loudness presentations, that would make
>>>>>> for a workshop. Perhaps Bob Katz or someone from his group
>>>>>> has something to present. It is likely the AGOTTVS group
>>>>>> could prepare a presentation on the state of their work.
>>>>>> Should I contact AGOTTVS leaders and see if this is so?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 10:42 AM, Bob Katz
>>>>>> <bobkatz at digido.com <mailto:bobkatz at digido.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Eelco, try to speak to the workshops committee right away....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When I know more about our meeting I'll let you all know.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 7/18/17 5:24 PM, Grimm | Eelco wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi Bob,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And I invite you (Eelco) to read from that preliminary
>>>>>>>> paper briefly at our streaming loudness subcommittee
>>>>>>>> meeting we'll be holding.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd love to attend your committee meeting. Please let me
>>>>>>> know in time when that meeting will be.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Workshop? That takes a lot of preparation. Are you game
>>>>>>>> for that? Needs tons of preparation, more even than
>>>>>>>> reading a paper. And you have to interest the
>>>>>>>> workshop's chairperson.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have a wonderful 30 min power point that I presented
>>>>>>> in Berlin and that needs only little updates. I guess
>>>>>>> the US audience would like to hear that too. But I do
>>>>>>> not know which workshop could host this presentation
>>>>>>> since I don't know the workshop program for this AES
>>>>>>> yet. Is there another Loudness War session?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>>> Eelco
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>> <http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you want good sound on your album, come to Bob Katz
>>>>>> 407-831-0233 <tel:%28407%29%20831-0233> DIGITAL DOMAIN
>>>>>> MASTERING STUDIO Author: *Mastering Audio *Digital Domain
>>>>>> Website <http://www.digido.com/> No trees were killed in
>>>>>> the sending of this message. However a large number of
>>>>>> electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> If you want good sound on your album, come to Bob Katz
>>>>> 407-831-0233 <tel:%28407%29%20831-0233> DIGITAL DOMAIN
>>>>> MASTERING STUDIO Author: *Mastering Audio *Digital Domain
>>>>> Website <http://www.digido.com/> No trees were killed in the
>>>>> sending of this message. However a large number of electrons
>>>>> were terribly inconvenienced.
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>>>>
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--
If you want good sound on your album, come to Bob Katz 407-831-0233
DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO Author: *Mastering Audio *Digital Domain
Website <http://www.digido.com/> No trees were killed in the sending of
this message. However a large number of electrons were terribly
inconvenienced.
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