<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>Well, "a reduction on material that's >-11 LUFS" improves
encoding quality (subtly) for that material, but there's plenty of
lower material whose peak level would overshoot the codec whose
LUFS falls between about -11 and -16 and occasionally below -16 so
there's not enough forethought going on here. If you're going to
attenuate before encoding in order to prevent encoder clipping
then do it right. <br>
</p>
<p>I suspect the reason they want to follow this approach is they
still want to keep their "loud" target" and are reluctant to raise
material that they have already lowered if they dropped material,
more sensibly, to, say, -14 LUFS. Eelco has not responded to this
thread in a while and I'm getting concerned.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Bob K. <br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/28/19 5:53 PM, Ian Shepherd
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:088C6995-F140-4694-BF33-B845D83ED04F@mastering-media.co.uk">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div apple-content-edited="true" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Ah wait, maybe I misunderstood. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I thought they would store 3 separate copies, each
hard-normalised to Loud, Medium or Soft, and then streamed
directly. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">But actually you’re saying they are just considering
a reduction on material > -11 LUFS to improve encoding
quality and provide the loudest copy (presumably also with
higher quality limiting baked-in for quieter songs ? Or will
they stop turning things up ?) but then other reference levels
will be achieved in software. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Is that right ?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Ian</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">PS. Understood about keeping this to ourselves </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On 28 Oct 2019, at 18:18, Kevin Gross <<a
href="mailto:kevin.gross@avanw.com" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">kevin.gross@avanw.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">I think it means what it says,
normalize PCM audio to -11 LUFS. From which I assume,
stuff that is louder than -11 LUFS gets digitally
attenuated. Stuff quieter is untouched before
normalization. Loudness metadata is stored as usual so
that playback target can be adjusted.
<div class=""><br class="" clear="all">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Kevin Gross - AVA Networks</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at
10:20 AM Bob Katz <<a
href="mailto:bobkatz@digido.com" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">bobkatz@digido.com</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="">
<div class="">On 10/28/19 9:49 AM, Grimm | Eelco
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<pre class="">Hi Ian,
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<pre class="">I heard from somewhere rumours that in future Spotify will be normalising before encoding.
(I can’t remember where this info came from, or whether it was on the record, which is why I’m mentioning it here first rather than in one of the AES groups)
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="">Yes, we should keep this ‘under the hat’ for a while. I can confirm it is an idea that Spotify is considering. I have shared the idea with people from the target level group since I believe it should be part of our recommendation. I also mentioned that Spotify is considering it but that it was not final and should be treated as confidential info.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<pre class="">Ultimately I think this is a good idea, since it will reduce the chances of decoder clipping, and also give better encoding results in general.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="">That is exactly why I told Spotify it is a good idea.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<pre class="">However it’s also concerning if they choose (for example) -14 LUFS as a reference level. There will be a huge investment of time and processing in re-encoding their entire library, and I imagine this would make them highly resistant to future changes - for example, to a reference level of -18 LUFS, as the AES are discussing.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="">No, it will always be a hybrid solution, which means: 1. attenuate PCM audio to -11 LUFS before encoding (the loudest target). 2. add metadata.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<p class="">Please clarify what this means! There must
be some clauses missing in the above. Or maybe you
mean "attenuate PCM audio by 11 dB before encoding,
and add metadata". <br class="">
</p>
<p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<pre class="">Did this info come from anyone in this group ? If so, do we need to start a conversation about it, or are Spotify already waiting to see what the AES recommend ?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="">They absolutely do. One more reason to keep moving forward.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<pre class="">If we don’t know, do you think it’s OK for me to post the same question in the AES groups ?!
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="">No, we should not post our knowledge about Spotify’s plans to the larger AES group. We can post the idea of attenuating to -11 LUFS before encoding, but I rather first discuss it in the target group.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<p class="">Please discuss it here first. Explain to
me what this means.... Did you really mean to say,
"attenuate by 11 dB first"? Which might make sense.
But honestly, only 2 or 3 dB of attenuation would do
the job for everything. <br class="">
</p>
<p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<p class="">Bob<br class="">
</p>
<p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<pre class="">Cheers,
Eelco
_______________________________________________
MLA mailing list
<a href="mailto:MLA@grimmaudio.nl" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">MLA@grimmaudio.nl</a>
<a href="http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<div class="">-- <br class="">
<pre class=""><font class="" face="3D"Courier"">
If you want good sound on your album, come to
Bob Katz 407-831-0233 DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
Author: <b class="">Mastering Audio</b>
<a href="https://www.digido.com/" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">Digital Domain Website</a>
No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.</font>
</pre>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br
class="">
MLA mailing list<br class="">
<a href="mailto:MLA@grimmaudio.nl" target="_blank"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">MLA@grimmaudio.nl</a><br
class="">
<a
href="http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl</a><br
class="">
</blockquote>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br class="">
MLA mailing list<br class="">
<a href="mailto:MLA@grimmaudio.nl" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">MLA@grimmaudio.nl</a><br class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl">http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl</a><br
class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
MLA mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:MLA@grimmaudio.nl">MLA@grimmaudio.nl</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl">http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<pre><font class="3D""" face="3D"Courier"">
If you want good sound on your album, come to
Bob Katz 407-831-0233 DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
Author: <b>Mastering Audio</b>
<a href="https://www.digido.com/">Digital Domain Website</a>
No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.</font>
</pre>
</div>
</body>
</html>