<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Hi Bob L,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Thanks for the prod. If you’re referring to the mail just below, I was the one commenting on flutter-stutter spreading like wildfire.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Watermarking can do this, but primitive dynamics processors operating in field-size chunks can too. After 8 months, BBC have only discovered that it likely happens “close to the studio” in their infrastructure. My guess would be a computer doing “clever” levelling, maybe the OS itself.</div><div class=""><br class=""><div class="">Regarding installed systems playing music, the stuttering could actually be caused by either - watermarking or a chunky PC - so thanks for the reminder.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">IMO, the scale of these “stutter-phenomena" far outweigh an occasional clip by a lossy codec or an SRC.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">cheers,</div><div class="">Thomas</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 14 Oct 2018, at 19.41, Bob Ludwig <<a href="mailto:gatewaybob@mac.com" class="">gatewaybob@mac.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div class=""></div><div class="">Hi Bob K,</div><div class="">I think you’re hearing the horrible Universal Music watermarks. Worse flutter than any analog machine!!!</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Bob L.</div><div class=""><br class="">On Oct 14, 2018, at 10:44 AM, Thomas Lund <<a href="mailto:thomas@lund.one" class="">thomas@lund.one</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8" class="">Hi Bob,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I agree, and by coincidence just sent this comment for the Consumer Tech Association’s new guidelines :-)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">cheers,</div><div class="">Thomas</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">Begin forwarded message:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">From: </b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Thomas Lund <<a href="mailto:thomas.lund@genelec.com" class="">thomas.lund@genelec.com</a>><br class=""></span></div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">Subject: </b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">[r4wg8] CTA and Dynamics Processing</b><br class=""></span></div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">Date: </b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">14 October 2018 at 15.11.51 GMT+2<br class=""></span></div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">To: </b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">"<a href="mailto:r4wg8@standards.cta.tech" class="">r4wg8@standards.cta.tech</a>" <<a href="mailto:r4wg8@standards.cta.tech" class="">r4wg8@standards.cta.tech</a>>, Jim Starzynski <<a href="mailto:jim.starzynski@nbcuni.com" class="">jim.starzynski@nbcuni.com</a>><br class=""></span></div><br class=""><div class=""><div class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div dir="auto" class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div dir="auto" class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div dir="auto" class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class="">Hello Jim, list members,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">It's great to see progress, and how smart speaker manufacturers have joinined so there is a chance of avoiding new “circles of confusion” between production, distribution and consumption, to borrow an expression from Floyd Toole. With content apparently now climbing away from a low point in 2008 [Ortner], distribution and reproduction also have to cut free of those dark times.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""></div>For situations where level-normalization by itself doesn’t ensure (speech) intelligibility, our guidelines could do with a longer paragraph on dynamics processing. More the rule than the exception still, sound quality is awful across platforms, and often far from the quality of the source. Furthermore, appalling sound is getting prevalent, <i class="">regardless</i> of a decent normalization level, which for instance is the case with my favourite internet radio station, BBC Radio 2.</div><div dir="auto" class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">A new breed of ultra-harmful processing seems to be taking hold everywhere: On digital radio, internet radio, streaming and installations (malls, hotels, conference rooms etc.). Try and notice for yourself. It's like wow&flutter on steroids, a stuttering sound (albeit probably in magnitude rather than time) even more detrimental than the space monkeys of lossy codecs. Maybe it's down to a new generation of MATLAB engineers without ears, but it’s systematically destroying audio - and that deserves a clear note in a document on consumer sound technology. With Loudness and True-peak level under control, time has therefore come to focus on audio’s no 1 enemy: Junk dynamics processing.</div><div dir="auto" class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Level-normalization based on gain reduction is the way to go, but leave further processing to experts, and design end-to-end systems for a <i class="">maximum</i> of one stage of dynamics processing between the source and the listener.</div><div dir="auto" class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">best regards,</div><div dir="auto" class="" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Thomas Lund</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 14 Oct 2018, at 16.31, Bob Katz <<a href="mailto:bobkatz@digido.com" class="">bobkatz@digido.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
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On 10/13/18 4:22 PM, Ian Shepherd wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:AC3AD567-662C-4D8C-B598-324C511772A6@mastering-media.co.uk" class="">
<pre wrap="" class="">Another example of why we need lower normalisation reference levels sooner rather than later, though...!
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How about saying: "Lower normalization reference levels, no positive
gain and no peak limiting." <br class="">
<br class="">
It's amazing how the streaming services reinvent the wheel wrong
again and again and don't consult with experts like us. Even Dolby
got it right historically with Dialnorm always being a downward
normalization approach. Thanks to efforts of Thomas, Eelco and
others, some of the services are just beginning to listen to us. <br class="">
<br class="">
In our recent conversations, I pointed out that it's totally
impractical to expect or even talk about any streaming player
applying attenuation to avoid overs just post the decode stage.
Therefore even though the clipping is not baked into a well-made
encoder, it has to be the responsibility of the mastering engineer
to prevent decoder clipping by reducing the level that will be
applied to the encoder if necessary. Mastering engineers have to
bake that level into the fixed point file that we supply to the
distributors. <br class="">
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Bob K<br class="">
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<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:AC3AD567-662C-4D8C-B598-324C511772A6@mastering-media.co.uk" class="">
<pre wrap="" class="">Ian
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<pre wrap="" class="">On 13 Oct 2018, at 17:35, Thomas Lund <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:thomas@lund.one"><thomas@lund.one></a> wrote:
Hi Bob,
That’s still an excellent example, and points to the danger of allowing positive gain, especially when having a bad limiter in the system.
cheers,
Thomas
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<pre wrap="" class="">On 13 Oct 2018, at 18.21, Robert Ludwig <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gatewaybob@mac.com"><gatewaybob@mac.com></a> wrote:
Hi Ian,
As you like to write about Loudness I wanted to give you something I came across before you joined the group.
We were once on the lookout for real world examples of tracks that needed boosting on iTunes Sound Check and that boosting would cause distortion I came across this example in my iTunes library.
Attached is a 5:26 Victoria Mullova & Kristian Beuldenhout Beethoven Violin Sonata movement on iTunes that peaks at -2.8 dBFS on the left channel at 4:26 on the 3 loud chords.
Sound Check says it needs to be raised to +8.8dB! It technically has 6dB of distortion at that peak if Sound Check was being used.
BS-1770 says it has a Program Loudness of -27.7, so if iTunes had used ITU as a measurement it would have raised it even more!
Best,
Bob Ludwig
<02 Victoria Mullova & Kristian Bezuidenhout.m4a>_______________________________________________
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