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<p>I was also a tester for Eelco and I felt the same way as Ian, the
tracks that were supposed to be soft just feel wrong in my gut.
However, I can see how even when it feels wrong, track
normalization can solve a lot of issues for background listeners.
Also, what about "parties", where DJs flip from song to song and
there's a lot of noise? I think that situation fits track
normalization better than album norm.</p>
<p>As several of us have pointed out, the devil in having a
user-switch between track and album is a devil, and we would have
to work out the ergonomic details before advocating such a switch.
And a beta test!</p>
<p>I am confident that what Tidal is doing for their product and
their audience was the right thing, especially if you regard it as
a live beta test! But we have to think about the track versus
album details before moving on to any further recommendations. <br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>BK</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/12/17 6:54 PM, Ian Shepherd
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:9B01CE65-CB5D-4439-B60D-5C29355C7EAA@mastering-media.co.uk">
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<div class="">Having been one of Eelco’s test subjects, I have to
say that for me, even at low levels & background listening,
I preferred the album-normalised stream. Both provided
sufficient normalisation, but the track-normalised version
simply had certain songs that caught my attention as being
“wrong”, whereas the album-normalised version didn’t.</div>
<div class=""><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<div class="">Also I agree with Bob - there is so much that’s
positive about this result (enabled by default, for starters)
and it can be refined in future if necessary.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Having said all that, I greatly respect your opinion
Thomas, and am curious about the problems you see with not
providing a track-normalised mode, if you’d like to comment ?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Ian</div>
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<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On 12 Dec 2017, at 16:40, Kevin Gross <<a
href="mailto:kevin.p.gross@gmail.com" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">kevin.p.gross@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div dir="auto" class="">For listening at low levels or in
noisy environments, we do need to talk about DRC. Maybe
track normalization is part of that discussion but it will
definitely not solve the problem on its own. Telling
listeners track normalization is for these situations is
not very satisfying advice.
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Unless/until we can justify and
explain how to use a track normalization mode, we should
not be advocating that it be included in player
implementations. </div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">If you want to do your own
listening tests, no Tidal subscription is required; Most
players with ReplayGain allow you to choose album vs
track normalization. I use MediaMonkey. <br class="">
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
<div data-smartmail="gmail_signature" dir="auto"
class="">Kevin </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Dec 12, 2017 8:02 AM, "Bob
Katz" <<a href="mailto:bobkatz@digido.com" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">bobkatz@digido.com</a>>
wrote:<br type="attribution" class="">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="">
<p class="">I think that background listeners
playing background music at low level would prefer
track normalization. I would in that case as the
softer tracks become non-viable. <br class="">
</p>
<p class="">Given that I believe that Tidal
listeners are more critical doing foreground
listening, that track normalization is not as
urgent a requirement as it would be with Spotify,
Apple, etc. <br class="">
</p>
<p class="">I have no idea how to tell listeners how
to specify mode, but if I were trying to make life
easier like Apple attempts to do I would not give
them that advice, I would try to estimate what
kind of a listener they are based on the SPL they
are listening at. So some form of a smart player
would be necessary. It's probably impractical to
implement, but I can dream, if the computer uses
its internal microphone to judge the loudness of
the music being played versus the noise of the
room, it could judge whether to use track or album
normalization.</p>
<p class="">Since that's currently science fiction,
I have not easy idea on how to present the options
to the user. No matter how you do it, it will be
confusing. Beta test. Beta test Beta test. Refine.
Refine Refine. <br class="">
</p>
<p class="">Bob</p>
<p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<br class="">
<div class="m_-1928767454634560597moz-cite-prefix">On
12/12/17 10:34 AM, Kevin Gross wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">You've read Eelco's paper
right? Aside from the fact that album worked
best subjectively for normal and corner cases,
one practical issue is that if you include an
album/track option for users you should explain
what it is for. I'm curious what advice you
would give to users on selecting mode. You say
track normalization is better in some cases.
What cases are those exactly?
<div class="gmail_extra"><br class=""
clear="all">
<div class="">
<div
class="m_-1928767454634560597gmail_signature"
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Kevin Gross - AVA
Networks</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Dec 12, 2017
at 1:56 AM, Thomas Lund <span dir="ltr"
class=""><<a
href="mailto:thomas@lund.one"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">thomas@lund.one</a>></span>
wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi,<br
class="">
<br class="">
We have had some discussions after it
became clear Tidal's system didn’t support
Loudness-normalization based both on Track
and Album; so they are stuck with the
latter for now. If we jump to conclusions,
more companies this group is used to
advise, may find themselves taking one
step forward and two backwards.<br
class="">
<br class="">
For some applications, Track norm is
better, for other applications Album norm
should be preferred. It’s bad advice to
impose an either/or decision, and in this
case it might have ramifications for
Tidal’s capability to comply with certain
requirements or new track search criteria.<br
class="">
<br class="">
Careful and unbiased guidance in these
matters will better stand the test of
time.<br class="">
<br class="">
Best regards,<br class="">
Thomas<br class="">
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If you want good sound on your album, come to
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