<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">Hi Ian,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Examples can always be found where one norm strategy or the other works best. In five year’s time, we will likely have an idea if one is better for normalisation in general.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">In the meantime, giving the advice “Album norm only” comes with at least two serious downsides: a) streaming providers might carry only the Album number forward, and b) Album reduces production transparency, a hard-fought feature of BS.1770. As a third minor downside, Tidal won’t be able to offer search criteria such as “only suggest tracks with PLR >12 dB” or “tracks with higher PLR at top of list”.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Ad a), if the Track value became vital, e.g. because of new regulatory requirements, extensive metadata work would be needed. Ad b), the wonderfully simple production concept - whatever you add, listen loudness normalised - is void.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">cheers,</div><div class="">Thomas</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 13 Dec 2017, at 00.54, Ian Shepherd <<a href="mailto:ian@mastering-media.co.uk" class="">ian@mastering-media.co.uk</a>> wrote:</div><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div apple-content-edited="true" class=""><br class="">
</div><div class="">Having been one of Eelco’s test subjects, I have to say that for me, even at low levels & background listening, I preferred the album-normalised stream. Both provided sufficient normalisation, but the track-normalised version simply had certain songs that caught my attention as being “wrong”, whereas the album-normalised version didn’t.</div><div class=""><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div class="">Also I agree with Bob - there is so much that’s positive about this result (enabled by default, for starters) and it can be refined in future if necessary.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Having said all that, I greatly respect your opinion Thomas, and am curious about the problems you see with not providing a track-normalised mode, if you’d like to comment ?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Ian</div><div class=""><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div>
<br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 12 Dec 2017, at 16:40, Kevin Gross <<a href="mailto:kevin.p.gross@gmail.com" class="">kevin.p.gross@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="auto" class="">For listening at low levels or in noisy environments, we do need to talk about DRC. Maybe track normalization is part of that discussion but it will definitely not solve the problem on its own. Telling listeners track normalization is for these situations is not very satisfying advice. <div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">Unless/until we can justify and explain how to use a track normalization mode, we should not be advocating that it be included in player implementations. </div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">If you want to do your own listening tests, no Tidal subscription is required; Most players with ReplayGain allow you to choose album vs track normalization. I use MediaMonkey. <br class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature" dir="auto" class="">Kevin </div></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Dec 12, 2017 8:02 AM, "Bob Katz" <<a href="mailto:bobkatz@digido.com" class="">bobkatz@digido.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution" class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class=""><p class="">I think that background listeners playing background music at low
level would prefer track normalization. I would in that case as
the softer tracks become non-viable. <br class="">
</p><p class="">Given that I believe that Tidal listeners are more critical doing
foreground listening, that track normalization is not as urgent a
requirement as it would be with Spotify, Apple, etc. <br class="">
</p><p class="">I have no idea how to tell listeners how to specify mode, but if
I were trying to make life easier like Apple attempts to do I
would not give them that advice, I would try to estimate what kind
of a listener they are based on the SPL they are listening at. So
some form of a smart player would be necessary. It's probably
impractical to implement, but I can dream, if the computer uses
its internal microphone to judge the loudness of the music being
played versus the noise of the room, it could judge whether to use
track or album normalization.</p><p class="">Since that's currently science fiction, I have not easy idea on
how to present the options to the user. No matter how you do it,
it will be confusing. Beta test. Beta test Beta test. Refine.
Refine Refine. <br class="">
</p><p class="">Bob</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<br class="">
<div class="m_-1928767454634560597moz-cite-prefix">On 12/12/17 10:34 AM, Kevin Gross
wrote:<br class="">
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<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">You've read Eelco's paper right? Aside from the
fact that album worked best subjectively for normal and corner
cases, one practical issue is that if you include an album/track
option for users you should explain what it is for. I'm curious
what advice you would give to users on selecting mode. You say
track normalization is better in some cases. What cases are
those exactly?
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="m_-1928767454634560597gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Kevin Gross - AVA Networks</div>
</div>
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<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 1:56 AM,
Thomas Lund <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:thomas@lund.one" target="_blank" class="">thomas@lund.one</a>></span>
wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi,<br class="">
<br class="">
We have had some discussions after it became clear Tidal's
system didn’t support Loudness-normalization based both on
Track and Album; so they are stuck with the latter for
now. If we jump to conclusions, more companies this group
is used to advise, may find themselves taking one step
forward and two backwards.<br class="">
<br class="">
For some applications, Track norm is better, for other
applications Album norm should be preferred. It’s bad
advice to impose an either/or decision, and in this case
it might have ramifications for Tidal’s capability to
comply with certain requirements or new track search
criteria.<br class="">
<br class="">
Careful and unbiased guidance in these matters will better
stand the test of time.<br class="">
<br class="">
Best regards,<br class="">
Thomas<br class="">
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