<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=us-ascii"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div>Hi Bob,</div><div><br></div><div>No worries, I am totally aware of the potential threat of this switching problem - that's why I shared it with MLA.</div><div><br></div><div>I meet with Buddy Wednesday evening for dinner. Can you and Thomas find a gap in your schedule either before the Keynote (12:30) or between 15:30 and 17:30?</div><div><br></div><div>All the best,</div><div>Eelco</div><br><div><div>On 16 okt. 2017, at 12:54, Bob Katz <<a href="mailto:bobkatz24bit@gmail.com">bobkatz24bit@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
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<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><p>Dear Eelco: Be VERY Careful about this topic of switching
loudness normalization in ---- with Buddy. I do know he has
thought about it already as I've had some brief conversations with
him about this already. HOWEVER, we do not want to postpone Apple
normalization by giving him the wrong ideas. And so we must
discuss this BEFORE you talk to Buddy.<br>
</p><p>Below I repeat my post of 10/15 as points of discussion among US
first, BEFORE you talk to Buddy. And in fact I urge a discussion
with you, me, Thomas and the rest BEFORE you talk to Buddy. We can
meet together at the show if you wish.</p><p>If Buddy had not suggested talking to you alone for sure more of
us would have been in that conversation with him. We have to be on
the same page first. Fortunately, Buddy is a level-headed person
and a good executive so he will take some things into account. <br>
</p><p>The main point I want to make is that you are worried too much
about a "frictionless transition". Making any mitigation to try to
avoid user complaints is a very dangerous and complicated
adjustment that could just as easily backfire! It's better that
Apple prepare for possible user complaints, but do not make any
attempts to mitigate loudness changes when normalization kicks in.
It's safer and better to just suck your gut in, make the change
and look out for user complaints. If you want to be real safe, you
do a beta test on any mitigation proposal. I would participate in
any Apple Beta test of this issue.<br>
</p><p>Keep in mind: Most listeners just adjust their volume controls
and go on. They're used to adjusting volume. It's really not such
a big deal! Do you think the switch to EBU-R128 was a big
problem? No.... listeners just made a volume control adjustment
and it was done. After normalization comes in they'll discover
they're moving their volume controls much less, so that's exactly
the point! Kevin, I think you're worried about a non-problem. <br>
</p><p>For a mitigation approach you would have to do a survey of what
kinds of listeners there are and the average impact of a switch to
normalization. You cannot assume. And then beta test!<br>
</p><p>There are some other considerations I repeat below. <br>
</p>
<br>
<br>
Best wishes,<br>
<br>
<br>
Bob K.<br>
<br>
Below is a repeat of my previous post:<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/14/17 1:36 PM, Kevin Gross wrote:<br>
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<div class="gmail_quote">The question is, is there a way that
the OS can mitigate the difference between normalization on
and off?<br>
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<br>
That is a VERY difficult question that we've all been wrestling with
for years. I predict that only a small percentage of users will
complain. Most of them will just turn their volume controls up a
little and cruise. So I would not suggest any kind of complex
modification that could become a real software nightmare --- and
postpone the introduction of normalization, which we do not want. <br>
<br>
There are three classes of listeners who may complain after the
switch:<br>
<br>
1) Listeners who've been listening to soft material on
European-weakened mobile devices. Hopefully the -14 loudest song
target for the loudest song in album norm will give sufficient
volume-control-room on mobile devices. Thomas was the one to suggest
the -14 target for album norm and I bet he already thinks it would
work for current European devices or he would have put his foot down
by now :-) Thomas? <br>
<br>
2) Deaf listeners who like to listen to hard rock LOUD. Things will
come down a bit. But my experience with the iPhone at least shows
there's tons of room on the volume control on the American device. <br>
<br>
So I think Tidal should stress the positive, as has been noted
already in this thread. They can say, "if you notice the volume has
come down a bit after this change, just turn your volume control up
a bit and your experience will be even better than before
normalization."<br>
<br>
3) <b>Attention Eelco: </b>Listeners who like to listen softly to
background music rather than foreground music, at low levels.
They're looking for a "processed, broadcast-style radio sound". THIS
GROUP OF LISTENERS IS THE REAL GOTCHA. That's because track
normalization is a form of upward compression: Soft songs are played
louder than they are intended to be. So it forms a kind of free
compressor for people who are playing music softly and not
attentively. The only solution I think is to provide a track
normalization option for those listeners or a compression option.
Eelco, I think you should mentally prepare Tidal for this kind of
listener. But honestly, I don't think the kind of listener who
gravitates to Tidal is a background music listener so this may be
more of a problem for Spotify and Prodigy.... Tidal is a
quality-oriented service. <br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/15/17 3:57 PM, Grimm | Eelco
wrote:<br>
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<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CA071DB2-C68A-486E-A5FF-8B43FCA6FE10@grimmaudio.com">
<pre wrap="">Hi Kevin,
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">As you said originally, doing a frictionless UX transition to normalization always-on or on-by-default is an interesting problem. I think Buddy would be interested in this problem and might throw out some important information we don't know about iTunes or iOS if you got him to do some brainstorming on it.
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<pre wrap="">Very good suggestion. I have put it on my agenda to discuss with Buddy.
Cheers,
Eelco
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