<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div apple-content-edited="true" class=""><br class="">
</div><div class="">Hi Eelco,</div><div class=""><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div class="">Glad you’ll be able to present your findings - and have a great holiday !</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Ian</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div>
<br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 25 Jul 2017, at 23:25, Eelco Grimm <<a href="mailto:eelco@grimmaudio.com" class="">eelco@grimmaudio.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div class=""></div><div class="">Dear all,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I just read a reply from Jonathan Wyner. We are long past the deadline for submitting workshops. So no loudness workshop this time unfortunately. Jonathan will try to give me a 15 min time slot in the streaming workshop for my Tidal project.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I'm sorry I realized so late that we should do a workshop. To be honest, I thought that there would be a loudness workshop again like always, but this was a mistake. </div><div class="">Excuse me for waisting some of your time with this thread!</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I guess it's time to get some rest on a holiday now... </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Cheers,</div><div class="">Eelco</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class="">Op 25 jul. 2017 om 22:47 heeft Eelco Grimm <<a href="mailto:eelco@grimmaudio.com" class="">eelco@grimmaudio.com</a>> het volgende geschreven:<br class=""><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class=""><div class=""></div><div class="">Dear all,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I do like the idea to have a table discussion at the workshop. As long as we have enough presentations that 'celebrate' the end of the loudness war and show the audience how to respond to that.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Kevin, I will be on holidays for three weeks from Thursday. I really hope you can reach the workshops chair and succeed in making our music loudness workshop happen!</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">All the best,</div><div class="">Eelco</div><div class=""><br class="">Op 25 jul. 2017 om 18:26 heeft Bob Katz <<a href="mailto:bobkatz@digido.com" class="">bobkatz@digido.com</a>> het volgende geschreven:<br class=""><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class=""><p class="">My "progress" report will be rather short, mostly regarding
proposed targets for podcast, that's about it. <br class="">
</p><p class="">I would like to suggest a short roundtable discussion including
Ian (if he is able to come), Eelco, and myself to discuss the
ramifications of album normalization. One of us could prepare a
short power point. I think it's important to underline and clearly
define the terminology. For example, I'm struggling to try to
explain the meaning of "no upward normalization". We have to find
a good terminology to define "normalization that would never cause
clipping". I don't like the term "Clip prevention" as it is a
dangerous term that could imply peak limiting. I am fundamentally
against adding peak limiting for already-mastered music. <br class="">
</p><p class="">I realize Eelco might want to talk about NORM-L and how it
prevents the need for any target but I fear it going over the head
of the audience. How about a separate poster session for that,
Eelco?<br class="">
</p>
We could discuss lots else, for example, the overshoot that occurs
after encoding, the evils of transcoding, etc. <br class="">
<br class="">
Best wishes,<br class="">
<br class="">
Bob<br class="">
<br class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 7/24/17 6:01 PM, Eelco Grimm wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:E7131E64-0344-46F0-8DB1-9073D4E4E3A7@grimmaudio.com" class="">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class="">
<div class="">Hi Kevin,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">We can make it smaller, no problem.
Cinema loudness is already covered at large in another workshop,
so we can skip that for sure. I think the two most important
topics are my Tidal research and a presentation from Ian or Bob
about how to make optimal use of the new -14 LUFS 'standard'.
The PSR meter can be a part of that. The AGOTTVS update can
focus on podcasts or anything else that's relevant. Or
alternatively Thomas may present something. We should indeed
have a discussion about the best introduction talk from you, we
will find something appropriate. Francis gave me the workshop
chair names (Jonathan Whiner is one of them!), I will send them
a message with you on CC. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Cheers,</div>
<div class="">Eelco</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">The workshop I had proposed to chair was a bit
different, smaller and focused on loudness normalization
<div class="">
<ol class="">
<li class="">Your Tidal presentation<br class="">
</li>
<li class="">Update from Bob Katz on streaming loudness
recommendations<br class="">
</li>
<li class="">Update from someone working in the AGOTTVS group<br class="">
</li>
<li class="">Loudness normalization in cinema?</li>
</ol>
I could do an overview introduction about loudness
normalization touching on existing systems: Sound Check,
Dialnorm, ReplayGain, BS.1770, R128, ATSC A/85</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 4:52 AM,
Ian Shepherd <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:ian@mastering-media.co.uk" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">ian@mastering-media.co.uk</a>></span>
wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Hi All,</div>
<div class=""><br class="m_-4316518757004317422webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<div class="">Just to say that in theory I’d be happy to do a
presentation with the title Eelco suggests, assuming
I’m in NY at the right time. Currently my plan is to
arrive late afternoon on Wednesday, and leave on
Friday night. I’m already doing a short presentation
on streaming loudness as part of Bob’s mastering
workshop on Friday afternoon, so it will depend on
timing, as well.</div>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888" class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Ian</div>
</font></span>
<div class="">
<div class="h5">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On 23 Jul 2017, at 23:29, Grimm | Eelco
<<a href="mailto:eelco@grimmaudio.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">eelco@grimmaudio.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="m_-4316518757004317422Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">
<div class="">Dear Kevin,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">You wrote about our possible loudness
workshop during AES 143rd: "I can
volunteer to chair it if that's
agreeable to everyone." and since there
is no time to loose, I love to accept
your offer.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Since I did not know the name of the
workshops chair and I could not find it
on the AES website, I just wrote a
message to the paper chairs Braxton
Boren and Areti Andreopoulou to ask me
to connect you and me to the workshops
chair. In case you already have a direct
lead to the workshops chair, please let
him (and Braxton and Areti) know. We
need to apply for a workshop time slot
asap.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Unfortunately I have very little time
before I leave on holidays (Thursday).
So I hope you all at MLA can help me a
bit to assemble the framework of this
workshop. The working title of the
workshop that I have in mind is: “The
Loudness War Has Ended, Now What?”</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I imagine a program with the
following topics:</div>
<div class="">1. My presentation about the
"Recommendation for loudness
normalization by Music Streaming
Services" (like I did in Berlin)</div>
<div class="">2. "Mastering after the loudness
war". Ian Shepherd could do this, or Bob
Katz (I recall that Ian is not in New
York all four days). NB Care should be
taken that this topic has not too much
overlap with the mastering workshop of
Bob Ludwig, but I guess there's enough
stuff to fill at least two sessions...</div>
<div class="">2b. Ian or Bob may show the PSR
meters that Ian, Nugen, RTW and Grimm
Audio will introduce during a poster
session at AES NY. </div>
<div class="">3. "Loudness normalization of
Podcasts". Bob Katz, please let us know
if you think this is a good topic for
this workshop. I think the SC-02-12
discussion about a target level of -18
LUFS is interesting enough to share.</div>
<div class="">4. Thomas Lund may have a
presentation, but we have not heard from
him yet.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">My presentation takes 30 min.
Workshops are usually 1.5 hours. We
should be able to fill that with high
quality presentations.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Cheers,</div>
<div class="">Eelco</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">
<div class="">Hi all,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">If there is no music loudness
workshop yet, I guess we should
organize one. Chances are high
that by October both Tidal and
Spotify, and - who knows - Apple,
are using album style
normalization on by default. That
would really mean the end of the
loudness war and we need to
celebrate that I guess. Topics
could be:</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">1. My Tidal research, showing
why -14 LUFS and Album
Normalization is the way to go for
mobile (and lower levels in
stationary situations of course).</div>
<div class="">2. What does the end of the
loudness war mean for music
mastering? Ian Shepherd could do a
presentation about "mastering
after the loudness war", but I am
sure Bob Katz can do it too. Care
should be taken that this does not
overlap with the mastering
workshop of course. Bob Ludwig, do
you have an idea about how to
avoid that?</div>
<div class="">3. We could show the new 'PSR'
standard meter that Ian, Nugen,
RTW, TC and Grimm Audio intend to
present at a joint poster session
in New York. </div>
<div class="">4. Maybe Thomas has some
interesting topic again? You
deserve to be on stage now things
are finally moving. </div>
<div class="">5. Possibly an update about
podcasts from SC-02-12. Perhaps a
bit off-topic, but it is very
interesting to see that they need
a lower target level (-18 LUFS on
mobile) for voice only...</div>
<div class="">6. .... (please add proposals)</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I am chairing a workshop on
cinema loudness already, so if
someone else from MLA could take
the chair position, I would be
glad...</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Cheers,</div>
<div class="">Eelco</div>
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class=""><p class="">In other words, Kevin, a
combined loudness workshop?
Thomas has run his
"tribunal" many times in the
past.... what would make it
different from the panels
he's run? Someone has to
chair this workshop.</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p><p class="">Bob</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<br class="">
<div class="m_-4316518757004317422moz-cite-prefix">On
7/20/17 2:51 PM, Kevin Gross
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">I would plan
on publishing your paper
at the European AES in
2018. We should give
ourselves time to to a
reasonable job of this.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Your presentation in
Berlin was well received
and I would hope the
workshop chair could
find a place for it in
the NY convention as a
tutorial or workshop. If
we can find two other
new 30-minute loudness
presentations, that
would make for a
workshop. Perhaps Bob
Katz or someone from his
group has something to
present. It is likely
the AGOTTVS group could
prepare a presentation
on the state of their
work. Should I contact
AGOTTVS leaders and see
if this is so?</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">On
Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at
10:42 AM, Bob Katz <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:bobkatz@digido.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">bobkatz@digido.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class=""><p class="">Eelco, try to
speak to the
workshops
committee right
away....</p><p class="">When I know more
about our meeting
I'll let you all
know.<span class="m_-4316518757004317422HOEnZb"><font color="#888888" class=""><br class="">
</font></span></p>
<span class="m_-4316518757004317422HOEnZb"><font color="#888888" class=""><p class="">Bob</p>
</font></span>
<div class="">
<div class="m_-4316518757004317422h5"><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<br class="">
<div class="m_-4316518757004317422m_-5367287601805830546moz-cite-prefix">On
7/18/17 5:24
PM, Grimm |
Eelco wrote:<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="m_-4316518757004317422h5">
<div class="">Hi Bob,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class=""><p class="">And I
invite you
(Eelco) to
read from that
preliminary
paper briefly
at our
streaming
loudness
subcommittee
meeting we'll
be holding. <br class="">
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I'd love
to attend your
committee
meeting.
Please let me
know in time
when that
meeting will
be.</div>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="">
<div class=""> <br class="m_-4316518757004317422webkit-block-placeholder">
</div><p class="">Workshop?
That takes a
lot of
preparation.
Are you game
for that?
Needs tons of
preparation,
more even than
reading a
paper. And you
have to
interest the
workshop's
chairperson.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I have a
wonderful 30
min power
point that I
presented in
Berlin and
that needs
only little
updates. I
guess the US
audience would
like to hear
that too. But
I do not know
which workshop
could host
this
presentation
since I don't
know the
workshop
program for
this AES yet.
Is there
another
Loudness War
session? </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">All the
best,</div>
<div class="">Eelco</div>
<br class="">
<br class="">
<fieldset class="m_-4316518757004317422m_-5367287601805830546mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
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If you want good sound on your album, come to
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If you want good sound on your album, come to
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If you want good sound on your album, come to
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