<div dir="ltr">Eelco I think I understand what you're saying and it would be great if there were more systems where normalization adjusted the final volume for the setting (regardless of whether that's an analog or digital control). An alternative, as Bob points out, is to use floating point or other high dynamic range audio path. To my knowledge none of this exists for portable devices. Using loudness normalization on a portable device produces distortion for higher DR masters and/or artificially limits maximum playback level for the lower DR masters.</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 8:05 AM, Bob Katz <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:bobkatz@digido.com" target="_blank">bobkatz@digido.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
Well, Apple's OSX is floating point all the way through so it
doesn't matter one bit (pun intended) whether the player's volume
control does the manipulation and the system volume does a little
manipulation afterward, nothing is lost. That is, it would be nice
if Apple would then dither the signal to 24 bits at the last stage
on the way to the fixed point output or the internal DAC.<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
Bob</font></span><div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 3/1/16 5:21 PM, Kevin Gross wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Unfortunately all the ReplayGain implementations
I've seen don't actually adjust the system volume; They just
attenuate or amplify the player's output in accordance with the
loudness measurement. Sound Check on portable devices works the
same. There is no happiness for anyone here. With this approach,
modern loud recordings are attenuated and play at a lower
maximum volume when normalization is enabled. Amplification on
older dynamic recordings introduces clipping or limiting at any
playback level.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 2:09 PM, Grimm |
Eelco <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:eelco@grimmaudio.com" target="_blank">eelco@grimmaudio.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Kevin,<br>
<span><br>
> I agree with what I think Eelco is suggesting;
Streaming services should transmit unnormalized audio but
include loudness metadata so that it can be normalized by
the player.<br>
<br>
</span>I was referring to stationary media players. They all
read replaygain metadata and merge that with their volume
control. So in a way they all have implemented norm-l
already. Now Tidal offers the loudness data in replaygain
format, the Tidal stream can be treated exactly the same as
local audio files. If the mobile devices apps would adopt
this feature I would certainly be very happy. In fact it
could be very easy: there's already a media player under
development that plays under iOS, Android, Linux and Mac OS
and it can merge volume control data with replaygain data.
It plays local files, network files and streams from
Spotify, Tidal, Deezer and Qobuz. The only thing it needs
for norm-l to work is the original audio and the loudness
metadata.<br>
<br>
But this may be just for the happy few. We need to convince
the big players too...<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Eelco<br>
<div>
<div><br>
><br>
> On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 4:06 AM, Grimm | Eelco <<a href="mailto:eelco@grimmaudio.com" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:eelco@grimmaudio.com" target="_blank">eelco@grimmaudio.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
> Hi Kevin,<br>
><br>
> > Things do get complicated when multiple
loudness targets are in play. The easiest thing to do is
to produce to the highest target. Our whitepaper
recommends improving players. We should stay on that
message and resist efforts to put even more targets in
play.<br>
><br>
> Yes, so -16 (to -20) LUFS is our target. The fact
that Tidal offers the metadata to 3rd party integrators
is however something different. In all media players it
is standard that the replaygain level is merged with the
volume control level and forwarded to for instance ALSA
sound control in a Linux system. The fact that Tidal now
offers the replaygain values alongside their audio means
that streaming audio can be treated exactly the same
like locally stored audio. How logical can it be?<br>
><br>
> Cheers,<br>
> Eelco<br>
><br>
> > On Feb 26, 2016 9:16 AM, "Thomas Lund"
<a href="mailto:thomas@lund.one" target="_blank"><thomas@lund.one></a> wrote:<br>
> > Hi Eelco,<br>
> ><br>
> > The catch is to get metadata safely out of the
system alongside audio. It’s not as attractive to use an
upstream NormL gain control and then (analog)
interfacing to the amp and speaker.<br>
> ><br>
> > I agree with your 2+3. In case streamers use a
fixed target, we have to convince them that
one-size-fits-all doesn’t cut it. There needs to be a
target setting at -16 LUFS or lower. To me, that’s more
important than if we get the whole NormL enchilada from
day one.<br>
> ><br>
> > cheers,<br>
> > Thomas<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > > On 26/02/2016, at 09.34, Grimm | Eelco
<<a href="mailto:eelco@grimmaudio.com" target="_blank">eelco@grimmaudio.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Hi Thomas,<br>
> > ><br>
> > >> BTW, I’m promoting the NormL
principle everywhere, but the ideal is of course to have
access to a late gain control in a *system*, especially
if interfacing from the streaming device is analog.
Hopefully Apple has listened...<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Well, Tidal did so for sure. If a company
like Roon Labs has the replaygain data, any Tidal
integrator has and they are free to implement Norm-l.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > In the end that is perhaps the largest
step that Tidal set: offering the raw loudness data to
app builders that integrate Tidal support, in stead of
rendering the loudness data directly in their API (at
their own default target level).<br>
> > ><br>
> > > I will check with someone who is deep
into this streamer code stuff how the loudness metadata
rendering in Spotify, Deezer, Qobuz etc is done.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > So it all boils down to three questions
for streamers:<br>
> > > 1. Do you offer the raw loudness metadata
+ raw audio data to downstream services via your API?<br>
> > > 2. In your own apps: what is the internal
target level?<br>
> > > 3. If the loudness level of a track is
lower than that target level, what happens?<br>
> > ><br>
> > > I will try to find the answer to question
1. Questions 2 and 3 will be answered soon when we
finished our research project for the TV show. I will
keep you updated.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > All the best,<br>
> > > Eelco<br>
> > ><br>
> > > PS Florian: will there be a loudness
panel again at AES Paris? I would be happy to present
the results of the research project...<br>
> > >
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<pre cols="80"><font face="Courier">
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Author: <b>Mastering Audio </b></font><font face="Courier">
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