<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 05/01/2016, at 19.05, Kevin Gross <<a href="mailto:kevin.gross@comcast.net" class="">kevin.gross@comcast.net</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Hi Thomas,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Wikipedia prefers "secondary sources". Peer review is not required, just needs to be a respected publication with "editorial controls". AES preprints should qualify as do trade magazines.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Do you have copies of preprints 5019 and 5251? Do you have a magazine clipping of a "Stop Squashing" article you can share?</div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 10:22 AM, Thomas Lund <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:thomas@lund.one" target="_blank" class="">thomas@lund.one</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">Hi everybody and happy New Year!<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The first AES paper I know about these topics is from the same convention where Søren Nielsen and I gave “Level Control in Digital Mastering” (preprint 5019 and 5251) including measurements and listening examples. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">We wrote “Stop Squashing” and 0 dBFS+ articles for various magazines 1996-99, but they weren’t pier reviewed.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">cheers,</div><div class="">Thomas</div><div class=""><div class="h5"><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 05/01/2016, at 16.33, Bob Katz <<a href="mailto:bobkatz@digido.com" target="_blank" class="">bobkatz@digido.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class=""><div class="">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<div class="">On 12/15/15 11:28 PM, Kevin Gross
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Bob, is there any published article you're aware of
where you described this experience?
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
Dear Kevin, it's Bob K replying, not Bob L :-).<br class="">
<br class="">
Probably, I'll think about it. But you can cite a talk I gave at the
107th AES Convention in New York, where I cited and described these
experiences. And gave demonstrations of currently smashed material
and compared it with "the oldies". <br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
Best wishes,<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
Bob<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">The 1980s section in the Wikipedia article definitely needs
more sources to support assertions made there. This source
describes the 1980s as an audio utopia of sorts - <a href="http://www.cdmasteringservices.com/dynamicdeath.htm" target="_blank" class=""></a><a href="http://www.cdmasteringservices.com/dynamicdeath.htm" target="_blank" class="">http://www.cdmasteringservices.com/dynamicdeath.htm</a>.
In this source, Bob Katz uses 1980s material as a reference
for unsquashed masters - <a href="http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb14/articles/loudness-war.htm" target="_blank" class="">http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb14/articles/loudness-war.htm</a>.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I found a reference for the 3 consecutive over criteria
and could incorporate this into the Wikipedia article but
this would support the existing audio utopia in the 1980s
narrative - <a href="http://www.recordingmag.com/resources/resourceDetail/246.html" target="_blank" class="">http://www.recordingmag.com/resources/resourceDetail/246.html</a>.
Your objection to this section is that this narrative does
not match your experience - the CD was not audio utopia in
the early to mid 1980s. Lots of releases were clipped in a
way that circumvented QC at the plants. The examples from
the 1980s we're using to support the utopia narrative are
cherrypicked.<br class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 4:49 PM,
Robert Ludwig <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:gatewaybob@mac.com" target="_blank" class="">gatewaybob@mac.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">Hi Kevin,
<div class="">Yes, let’s wait to hear back from Bob K et al.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Kevin, I’m very grateful that someone as
knowledgable as you is a Wikipedia editor, thank you
for that.</div>
<div class="">I just re-read the Loudness War article and saw
there have been 15 edits in the last month and the
“talk” page is pretty wicked and nasty.</div>
<div class=""><span style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="">From
my point of view, the only statement I would
question is: </span></div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class=""><font face="sans-serif" color="#252525" class=""><span style="font-size:14px" class="">"Since CDs were not the
primary medium for popular music until the late
1980s, there was little motivation for
competitive loudness practices then. CD players
were also very expensive and thus commonly
exclusive to high-end systems that would show
the shortcomings of higher recording levels.” </span></font></span></div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class=""><font face="sans-serif" color="#252525" class=""><span style="font-size:14px" class=""><br class="">
</span></font></span></div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class=""><font face="sans-serif" color="#252525" class=""><span style="font-size:14px" class="">Early on, the record
companies and CD plants established a rule that
they would reject CD masters that had
3 consecutive over-levels. </span></font></span><span style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="">Even
before the invention of the “look-ahead” brick-wall
limiters, m</span><span style="font-size:14px;color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="">y
clients almost <u class="">always</u> wanted me to use every
last bit of dynamic range. Some, like the composer
John Zorn, discovered that sometimes even heavy
clipping was not so audible, so he had me master,
blasting his music into the red and then make a
copy at -0.2dB (the resolution of the Sony digital
editor) so it would pass the CD plant OVER test! </span></div>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:14px;color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:14px;color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="">All
my best,</span></div>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:14px;color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="">Bob
L.</span></div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><span style="font-size:14px;color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:14px;color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Dec 7, 2015, at 3:15 PM, Kevin Gross
<<a href="mailto:kevin.gross@comcast.net" target="_blank" class="">kevin.gross@comcast.net</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">These are going to be
significant changes.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Does the subcommittee of three want
to consider the other options mentioned
in this thread before I go to the
trouble of proposing specific revisions?</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Dec 7,
2015 at 11:55 AM, Thomas Lund <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:thomas@lund.one" target="_blank" class=""></a><a href="mailto:thomas@lund.one" target="_blank" class="">thomas@lund.one</a>></span>
wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">Hello
Kevin,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I agree about education vs.
promotion, so please go ahead and
suggest improvements with the
cause rather than us in focus.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">cheers,</div>
<div class="">Thomas</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">PS. Even my kids know not to
trust or to quote from Wikipedia,
which is generally a dynamic pile
of
last-man-on-the-keyboard-self-promotion,
so I wouldn't stand behind an
initiative referring to that. From
an academic point of view, the
loudness war article is useless,
but it might not be worse than
Wikipedia pages in general.</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On 07/12/2015, at
18.34, Kevin Gross <<a href="mailto:kevin.gross@comcast.net" target="_blank" class=""></a><a href="mailto:kevin.gross@comcast.net" target="_blank" class="">kevin.gross@comcast.net</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">MLA was
founded as a technical
expert group. Our work
so far has been in
education and
engineering on
loudness topics and
normalization systems.
The petition is a
piece of non-technical
advocacy and I don't
know if I'm fully
comfortable with that.
It is possible my
concern could be
addressed through
editing to remove some
of the stridency. I
would be happy to
propose some changes
if you're interested.
But I respect comments
from Thomas and Bob
Ludwig and would like
to see those addressed
too.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Incidentally, I
am one of the
editors of the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war" target="_blank" class=""></a><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war" target="_blank" class="">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war</a>
article. If there is
a specific objection
to something in that
article, I would be
happy to try and
revise it.</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">On
Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at
9:19 AM, Thomas Lund
<span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:thomas@lund.one" target="_blank" class=""></a><a href="mailto:thomas@lund.one" target="_blank" class="">thomas@lund.one</a>></span>
wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">Hi
Bob L and all,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I second
that. It was
also not easy
to defend the
time spent and
the potential
customer
annoyance
caused by
engaging in
this topic for
>15 years
at TC, so
kindly
understand the
tact and
requirements
needed for
steaming ahead
as a group.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">best
regards,</div>
<div class="">Thomas</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On
07/12/2015, at
16.52, Robert
Ludwig <<a href="mailto:gatewaybob@mac.com" target="_blank" class=""></a><a href="mailto:gatewaybob@mac.com" target="_blank" class="">gatewaybob@mac.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">HI
Bob K.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">First,
clearly I
support this
initiative,
that is never
in doubt. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I re-read
your original
email where
you wrote: "<span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="">My proposal is that the MLA
become the
named
organization
behind the
promulgation
of this
petition.</span>”</div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="">Being
that some of
our members
are in the
trenches
fighting the
Loudness
battle in
world-class
situations,
and being that
our names are
NOT being
signed on the
petition,
perhaps the
MLA should NOT
be the “named
organization”
but “<a href="http://turnmeup.org/" target="_blank" class="">turnmeup.org</a>”, your own
<a href="http://digido.com/" target="_blank" class="">Digido.com</a> site or other.
It won’t
change the
impact of the
petition, in
fact perhaps
there is more
engineer
community
awareness of
those sites
than ours.</span></div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="">What
does the group
think?</span></div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="">Thanks,</span></div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="">Bob
L.</span></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Dec 7,
2015, at 9:42
AM, Bob Katz
<<a href="mailto:bobkatz@digido.com" target="_blank" class=""></a><a href="mailto:bobkatz@digido.com" target="_blank" class="">bobkatz@digido.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class="">
Guys, Thanks
for your
thoughts.<br class="">
<br class="">
We'll look at
some of your
thoughts and
see at least
if we can
improve the
links.<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class=""> </blockquote>
<br class="">
As far as the
title goes. We
are activists,
passionate
about our
position. This
is a petition
written by
activists,
designed to be
put on <a href="http://change.org/" target="_blank" class="">Change.org</a> to get action.
It's designed
to attract
people to sign
it. "Say No To
A Streaming
Loudness War"
attracts
attention,
gets the
message across
well and is in
tune with the
idea of what a
petition is
supposed to
do. <br class="">
<br class="">
Do you want
this to
languish in
"We're not
activists,
we're just
apathetic
engineers, so
sign our
petition if
you care, but
anyway, have a
nice day."<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
Be an
activist.
Support an
activist title
for this
petition!<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
Bob K.<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<div class="">-- <br class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<pre cols="80" class=""><font face="Courier" class="">Bob Katz <a href="tel:407-831-0233" value="+14078310233" target="_blank" class="">407-831-0233</a> </font><font face="Courier" class="">DIGITAL DOMAIN | "There are two kinds of fools,
Recording, Mastering, Manufacturing | One says-this is old and therefore good.
Author: <b class="">Mastering Audio </b></font><font class=""><font face="Courier" class="">| The other says-this is new and therefore</font></font><font face="Courier" class="">
<a href="http://www.digido.com/" target="_blank" class="">Digital Domain Website</a> | better."
No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.<font color="#ff0000" class="">
<b class="">No more Plaxo, Linked-In, or any of the other time-suckers. Please contact me by regular email. Yes, we have a facebook page and a You-Tube site!</b></font></font></pre>
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<br class="">
<div class="">-- <br class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<pre cols="80" class=""><font face="Courier" class="">
If you want good sound on your album, come to
Bob Katz <a href="tel:407-831-0233" value="+14078310233" target="_blank" class="">407-831-0233</a> </font><font face="Courier" class="">DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
Author: <b class="">Mastering Audio </b></font><font face="Courier" class="">
<a href="http://www.digido.com/" target="_blank" class="">Digital Domain Website</a>
No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.<font color="#ff0000" class="">
<b class="">No more Plaxo, Linked-In, or any of the other time-suckers.
Please contact me by regular email. Yes, we have a facebook page and a You-Tube site!</b></font></font></pre>
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