<div dir="ltr">I have edited slightly and added your material to <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness#Measurement">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness#Measurement</a><div><br></div><div>It would be helpful to have one or more references specifically on Leq(RLB) and further development of BS.1770</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr">Kevin Gross - AVA Networks</div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 1:16 PM, Thomas Lund <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:thomas@lund.one" target="_blank">thomas@lund.one</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">Hi Kevin,<div><br></div><div>Here are some facts for the Loudness War article so the measurement part reflects what actually happened since 2000. I can add references and more details if you think it's worthwhile. There might be other places on Wikipedia where some of this would also fit.</div><div><br></div><div>cheers,</div><div>Thomas</div><div><br></div><div>***</div><div><br></div><div>The foundation we’re relying on today for measuring digital audio is the ITU-R BS.1770 “loudness” and true-peak level standard. Work began in 2001 after 0 dBFS+ level distortion in converters and lossy codecs had become evident; and the original Leq(RLB) loudness metric was proposed by Gilbert Soloudre from CRC in 2003.</div><div><br></div><div>Based on data from subjective listening tests, Leq(RLB) was compared against numerous other algorithms where it did remarkably well. After modification of the frequency weighting, the measurement was made multi-channel (mono to 5.1). CBC, Dolby and TC did the heavy lifting with numerous broadcasters contributing invaluable listening tests.</div><div><br></div><div>To make the loudness metric cross-genre friendly, a relative measurement gate was added. This work was carried out 2008 in EBU P/LOUD with Florian Camerer the dynamic chairman, and the improvements were brought back into BS.1770-2. ITU subsequently updated the true-peak metric (BS.1770-3) and added provision for more audio channels, for instance 22.2 (BS.1770-4). Today, BS.1770-4 is used globally to define Loudness Level, True-peak Level and Peak to Loudness Ratio (PLR).</div><div><br></div><div>***END</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><div><blockquote type="cite"><span class=""><div>On 07/12/2015, at 18.34, Kevin Gross <<a href="mailto:kevin.gross@comcast.net" target="_blank">kevin.gross@comcast.net</a>> wrote:</div><br></span><div><div class="h5"><div><div dir="ltr">MLA was founded as a technical expert group. Our work so far has been in education and engineering on loudness topics and normalization systems. The petition is a piece of non-technical advocacy and I don't know if I'm fully comfortable with that. It is possible my concern could be addressed through editing to remove some of the stridency. I would be happy to propose some changes if you're interested. But I respect comments from Thomas and Bob Ludwig and would like to see those addressed too.<div><br></div><div>Incidentally, I am one of the editors of the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war</a> article. If there is a specific objection to something in that article, I would be happy to try and revise it.</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 9:19 AM, Thomas Lund <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:thomas@lund.one" target="_blank">thomas@lund.one</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">Hi Bob L and all,<div><br></div><div>I second that. It was also not easy to defend the time spent and the potential customer annoyance caused by engaging in this topic for >15 years at TC, so kindly understand the tact and requirements needed for steaming ahead as a group.</div><div><br></div><div>best regards,</div><div>Thomas</div><div><div><div><br></div><div><br><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On 07/12/2015, at 16.52, Robert Ludwig <<a href="mailto:gatewaybob@mac.com" target="_blank">gatewaybob@mac.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div style="word-wrap:break-word">HI Bob K.<div><br></div><div>First, clearly I support this initiative, that is never in doubt. </div><div><br></div><div>I re-read your original email where you wrote: "<span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">My proposal is that the MLA become the named organization behind the promulgation of this petition.</span>”</div><div><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br></span></div><div><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Being that some of our members are in the trenches fighting the Loudness battle in world-class situations, and being that our names are NOT being signed on the petition, perhaps the MLA should NOT be the “named organization” but “<a href="http://turnmeup.org/" target="_blank">turnmeup.org</a>”, your own <a href="http://digido.com/" target="_blank">Digido.com</a> site or other. It won’t change the impact of the petition, in fact perhaps there is more engineer community awareness of those sites than ours.</span></div><div><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br></span></div><div><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">What does the group think?</span></div><div><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Thanks,</span></div><div><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Bob L.</span></div><div><br></div><div><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br></span></div><div><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br></span></div><div><br><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Dec 7, 2015, at 9:42 AM, Bob Katz <<a href="mailto:bobkatz@digido.com" target="_blank">bobkatz@digido.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><div>
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Guys, Thanks for your thoughts.<br>
<br>
We'll look at some of your thoughts and see at least if we can
improve the links.<br>
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<br>
As far as the title goes. We are activists, passionate about our
position. This is a petition written by activists, designed to be
put on <a href="http://change.org/" target="_blank">Change.org</a> to get action. It's designed to attract people to
sign it. "Say No To A Streaming Loudness War" attracts attention,
gets the message across well and is in tune with the idea of what a
petition is supposed to do. <br>
<br>
Do you want this to languish in "We're not activists, we're just
apathetic engineers, so sign our petition if you care, but anyway,
have a nice day."<br>
<br>
<br>
Be an activist. Support an activist title for this petition!<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Bob K.<br>
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<pre cols="80"><font face="Courier">Bob Katz <a href="tel:407-831-0233" value="+14078310233" target="_blank">407-831-0233</a> </font><font face="Courier">DIGITAL DOMAIN | "There are two kinds of fools,
Recording, Mastering, Manufacturing | One says-this is old and therefore good.
Author: <b>Mastering Audio </b></font><font><font face="Courier">| The other says-this is new and therefore</font></font><font face="Courier">
<a href="http://www.digido.com/" target="_blank">Digital Domain Website</a> | better."
No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.<font color="#ff0000">
<b>No more Plaxo, Linked-In, or any of the other time-suckers. Please contact me by regular email. Yes, we have a facebook page and a You-Tube site!</b></font></font></pre>
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