<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">I will dig up the references. Maybe you in the meantime could think about how the Loudness War page (and other Wiki pages, especially the ones referring to people that are still alive) is made more factual and less self-promotional.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Wiki loudness-normalization is badly needed :-)<br class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">cheers,</div><div class="">Thomas<br class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 16/12/2015, at 05.46, Kevin Gross <<a href="mailto:kevin.gross@avanw.com" class="">kevin.gross@avanw.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">I have edited slightly and added your material to <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness#Measurement" class="">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness#Measurement</a><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">It would be helpful to have one or more references specifically on Leq(RLB) and further development of BS.1770</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all" class=""><div class=""><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr" class="">Kevin Gross - AVA Networks</div></div></div>
<br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 1:16 PM, Thomas Lund <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:thomas@lund.one" target="_blank" class="">thomas@lund.one</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">Hi Kevin,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Here are some facts for the Loudness War article so the measurement part reflects what actually happened since 2000. I can add references and more details if you think it's worthwhile. There might be other places on Wikipedia where some of this would also fit.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">cheers,</div><div class="">Thomas</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">***</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The foundation we’re relying on today for measuring digital audio is the ITU-R BS.1770 “loudness” and true-peak level standard. Work began in 2001 after 0 dBFS+ level distortion in converters and lossy codecs had become evident; and the original Leq(RLB) loudness metric was proposed by Gilbert Soloudre from CRC in 2003.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Based on data from subjective listening tests, Leq(RLB) was compared against numerous other algorithms where it did remarkably well. After modification of the frequency weighting, the measurement was made multi-channel (mono to 5.1). CBC, Dolby and TC did the heavy lifting with numerous broadcasters contributing invaluable listening tests.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">To make the loudness metric cross-genre friendly, a relative measurement gate was added. This work was carried out 2008 in EBU P/LOUD with Florian Camerer the dynamic chairman, and the improvements were brought back into BS.1770-2. ITU subsequently updated the true-peak metric (BS.1770-3) and added provision for more audio channels, for instance 22.2 (BS.1770-4). Today, BS.1770-4 is used globally to define Loudness Level, True-peak Level and Peak to Loudness Ratio (PLR).</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">***END</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span class=""><div class="">On 07/12/2015, at 18.34, Kevin Gross <<a href="mailto:kevin.gross@comcast.net" target="_blank" class="">kevin.gross@comcast.net</a>> wrote:</div><br class=""></span><div class=""><div class="h5"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">MLA was founded as a technical expert group. Our work so far has been in education and engineering on loudness topics and normalization systems. The petition is a piece of non-technical advocacy and I don't know if I'm fully comfortable with that. It is possible my concern could be addressed through editing to remove some of the stridency. I would be happy to propose some changes if you're interested. But I respect comments from Thomas and Bob Ludwig and would like to see those addressed too.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Incidentally, I am one of the editors of the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war" target="_blank" class="">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war</a> article. If there is a specific objection to something in that article, I would be happy to try and revise it.</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 9:19 AM, Thomas Lund <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:thomas@lund.one" target="_blank" class="">thomas@lund.one</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">Hi Bob L and all,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I second that. It was also not easy to defend the time spent and the potential customer annoyance caused by engaging in this topic for >15 years at TC, so kindly understand the tact and requirements needed for steaming ahead as a group.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">best regards,</div><div class="">Thomas</div><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 07/12/2015, at 16.52, Robert Ludwig <<a href="mailto:gatewaybob@mac.com" target="_blank" class="">gatewaybob@mac.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">HI Bob K.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">First, clearly I support this initiative, that is never in doubt. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I re-read your original email where you wrote: "<span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="">My proposal is that the MLA become the named organization behind the promulgation of this petition.</span>”</div><div class=""><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class=""><br class=""></span></div><div class=""><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="">Being that some of our members are in the trenches fighting the Loudness battle in world-class situations, and being that our names are NOT being signed on the petition, perhaps the MLA should NOT be the “named organization” but “<a href="http://turnmeup.org/" target="_blank" class="">turnmeup.org</a>”, your own <a href="http://digido.com/" target="_blank" class="">Digido.com</a> site or other. It won’t change the impact of the petition, in fact perhaps there is more engineer community awareness of those sites than ours.</span></div><div class=""><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class=""><br class=""></span></div><div class=""><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="">What does the group think?</span></div><div class=""><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="">Thanks,</span></div><div class=""><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="">Bob L.</span></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class=""><br class=""></span></div><div class=""><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class=""><br class=""></span></div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Dec 7, 2015, at 9:42 AM, Bob Katz <<a href="mailto:bobkatz@digido.com" target="_blank" class="">bobkatz@digido.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class=""><div class="">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class="">
Guys, Thanks for your thoughts.<br class="">
<br class="">
We'll look at some of your thoughts and see at least if we can
improve the links.<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
As far as the title goes. We are activists, passionate about our
position. This is a petition written by activists, designed to be
put on <a href="http://change.org/" target="_blank" class="">Change.org</a> to get action. It's designed to attract people to
sign it. "Say No To A Streaming Loudness War" attracts attention,
gets the message across well and is in tune with the idea of what a
petition is supposed to do. <br class="">
<br class="">
Do you want this to languish in "We're not activists, we're just
apathetic engineers, so sign our petition if you care, but anyway,
have a nice day."<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
Be an activist. Support an activist title for this petition!<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
Bob K.<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<div class="">-- <br class="">
<div class="">
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<pre cols="80" class=""><font face="Courier" class="">Bob Katz <a href="tel:407-831-0233" value="+14078310233" target="_blank" class="">407-831-0233</a> </font><font face="Courier" class="">DIGITAL DOMAIN | "There are two kinds of fools,
Recording, Mastering, Manufacturing | One says-this is old and therefore good.
Author: <b class="">Mastering Audio </b></font><font class=""><font face="Courier" class="">| The other says-this is new and therefore</font></font><font face="Courier" class="">
<a href="http://www.digido.com/" target="_blank" class="">Digital Domain Website</a> | better."
No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.<font color="#ff0000" class="">
<b class="">No more Plaxo, Linked-In, or any of the other time-suckers. Please contact me by regular email. Yes, we have a facebook page and a You-Tube site!</b></font></font></pre>
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