From bobkatz at digido.com  Tue Mar  1 23:55:13 2022
From: bobkatz at digido.com (Bob Katz)
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 17:55:13 -0500
Subject: [MLA] iTunes NOT using -16 LUFS yet ?
In-Reply-To: <0F1BEFA2-9DD4-4301-87A9-E70078E4CE0C@mastering-media.co.uk>
References: <29336B02-F42B-4DFA-B271-99557CE7EA1B@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<561ce0a7-3d58-268c-f494-3f0854cc51e8@digido.com>
	<0F1BEFA2-9DD4-4301-87A9-E70078E4CE0C@mastering-media.co.uk>
Message-ID: <b584a69a-b93d-6cd3-afbf-eb0aaf5feb39@digido.com>

Dear Ian:

Thanks for doing that research.


I can't wait till this all gets straightened out...

A client just told me (for the umpteenth time) that his song is playing 
too soft on some platform or another. I told him either I could crush it 
for him and it will sound distorted and overcompressed, or he has to 
live with the problem on non-normalized platforms. This is a 
great-sounding song that we could ruin for the sake of loudness. Age old 
story.



Bob



On 2/24/22 6:36 AM, Ian Shepherd wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> Buddy got back to me quickly - he says there is a known issue with the 
> macOS Music app where songs bought and downloaded still use the old 
> Sound Check value, which they?re working on. This explains the strange 
> M1 Mac result.
>
> I also tested from my iPhone this morning which is normalising to -16 
> LUFS, even with older files like Death Magnetic, which is great news.
>
> However my Mojave iTunes is still using the Legacy Sound Check 
> setting, I?ve asked Buddy if there will be an update to fix this and 
> will let you know what he says.
>
> So, basically good news - hopefully they?ll fix that bug fairly 
> quickly, and hopefully also roll LUFS back to older Mac OS versions. 
> Lots of musicians and engineers use these old versions, so it will be 
> a source of plenty of confusion if they don?t...
>
> Ian
>
>
>
>> On 23 Feb 2022, at 16:18, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 2/23/22 6:38 AM, Ian Shepherd wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> Just a heads-up about this. We?re planning an update to Loudness 
>>> Penalty to reflect the news that iTunes is going to use LUFS for 
>>> Sound Check, but I wanted to warn you that in our tests it doesn?t 
>>> seem to be working as intended, even on a brand new M1 Mac with the 
>>> latest software updates and recently released material.
>>>
>>> I have other examples but specifically Bob drew my attention to this 
>>> song:
>>>
>>> https://music.apple.com/gb/album/the-joker-and-the-queen-feat-taylor-swift/1608894948?i=1608894952
>>>
>>> Using the afinfo command in Terminal it reports the following results:
>>>
>>>> aa itu loudness: -8.5
>>>> sound check volume normalization gain: -7.50 dB
>>>
>>> This would result in a playback loudness of -16 LUFS, but measuring 
>>> the actual value gives a result of -15.1 LUFS, which is a 
>>> normalization change of only -6.6 dB
>>
>>
>> Oy vey.
>>
>> Well, I agree, this means that the legacy SoundCheck is being used. 
>> We need some clarification from Buddy Judge.
>>
>> Let's compile this information and alert Buddy Judge. At the least he 
>> will have an explanation.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Whereas the "Song Info>File>Volume" value in iTunes reports -6.7, 
>>> which is obviously a very close match to the measured result. Since 
>>> this is the ?Legacy? Sound Check value, this song and other examples 
>>> like it make me think that LUFS values aren?t being used yet, on Mac 
>>> OS at least.
>>>
>>> Testing the results from iOS is tricky because of Apple?s copy 
>>> protection, but if we make any progress with this I?ll let you know.
>>>
>>> I?ve emailed Buddy to ask about this, and will let you know if I get 
>>> a reply - perhaps it?s just a glitch!
>>>
>>> Either way I wanted to make you aware so that we don?t jump the gun 
>>> announcing the change.
>>>
>>
>> I'm glad you wrote him!
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Ian
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ***
>>> Ian Shepherd
>>> Mastering Media Ltd <http://mastering-media.co.uk/>?- Audio 
>>> Mastering, Blu-ray and DVD?Excellence
>>> http://twitter.com/ianshepherd
>>>
>>> <http://twitter.com/ianshepherd>Mastering Media Ltd,
>>> Kemp House, 152 City Road, London, EC1V 2NX
>>> Registered in England and Wales
>>> Company No. 073500450
>>>
>>> Tel. +44(0)1487 842498
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> MLA mailing list
>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>> -- 
>> If you want good sound on your album, come to Bob Katz 407-831-0233 
>> DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO Author: *Mastering Audio* Digital 
>> Domain Website <https://www.digido.com/> No trees were killed in the 
>> sending of this message. However a large number of electrons were 
>> terribly inconvenienced.
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>
-- 

If you want good sound on your album, come to Bob Katz 407-831-0233 
DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO Author: *Mastering Audio* Digital Domain 
Website <https://www.digido.com/> No trees were killed in the sending of 
this message. However a large number of electrons were terribly 
inconvenienced.
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From bobkatz at digido.com  Wed Mar  2 02:59:24 2022
From: bobkatz at digido.com (Bob Katz)
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 20:59:24 -0500
Subject: [MLA] iTunes NOT using -16 LUFS yet ?
In-Reply-To: <b584a69a-b93d-6cd3-afbf-eb0aaf5feb39@digido.com>
References: <29336B02-F42B-4DFA-B271-99557CE7EA1B@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<561ce0a7-3d58-268c-f494-3f0854cc51e8@digido.com>
	<0F1BEFA2-9DD4-4301-87A9-E70078E4CE0C@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<b584a69a-b93d-6cd3-afbf-eb0aaf5feb39@digido.com>
Message-ID: <a92ce4a7-244d-0521-7653-3f7a643494ca@digido.com>

Well, the client loves the master and isn't going to change a thing!!!!


Three cheers for dynamics,



Bob


On 3/1/22 5:55 PM, Bob Katz wrote:
>
> Dear Ian:
>
> Thanks for doing that research.
>
>
> I can't wait till this all gets straightened out...
>
> A client just told me (for the umpteenth time) that his song is 
> playing too soft on some platform or another. I told him either I 
> could crush it for him and it will sound distorted and overcompressed, 
> or he has to live with the problem on non-normalized platforms. This 
> is a great-sounding song that we could ruin for the sake of loudness. 
> Age old story.
>
>
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> On 2/24/22 6:36 AM, Ian Shepherd wrote:
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Buddy got back to me quickly - he says there is a known issue with 
>> the macOS Music app where songs bought and downloaded still use the 
>> old Sound Check value, which they?re working on. This explains the 
>> strange M1 Mac result.
>>
>> I also tested from my iPhone this morning which is normalising to -16 
>> LUFS, even with older files like Death Magnetic, which is great news.
>>
>> However my Mojave iTunes is still using the Legacy Sound Check 
>> setting, I?ve asked Buddy if there will be an update to fix this and 
>> will let you know what he says.
>>
>> So, basically good news - hopefully they?ll fix that bug fairly 
>> quickly, and hopefully also roll LUFS back to older Mac OS versions. 
>> Lots of musicians and engineers use these old versions, so it will be 
>> a source of plenty of confusion if they don?t...
>>
>> Ian
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 23 Feb 2022, at 16:18, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2/23/22 6:38 AM, Ian Shepherd wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi All,
>>>>
>>>> Just a heads-up about this. We?re planning an update to Loudness 
>>>> Penalty to reflect the news that iTunes is going to use LUFS for 
>>>> Sound Check, but I wanted to warn you that in our tests it doesn?t 
>>>> seem to be working as intended, even on a brand new M1 Mac with the 
>>>> latest software updates and recently released material.
>>>>
>>>> I have other examples but specifically Bob drew my attention to 
>>>> this song:
>>>>
>>>> https://music.apple.com/gb/album/the-joker-and-the-queen-feat-taylor-swift/1608894948?i=1608894952
>>>>
>>>> Using the afinfo command in Terminal it reports the following results:
>>>>
>>>>> aa itu loudness: -8.5
>>>>> sound check volume normalization gain: -7.50 dB
>>>>
>>>> This would result in a playback loudness of -16 LUFS, but measuring 
>>>> the actual value gives a result of -15.1 LUFS, which is a 
>>>> normalization change of only -6.6 dB
>>>
>>>
>>> Oy vey.
>>>
>>> Well, I agree, this means that the legacy SoundCheck is being used. 
>>> We need some clarification from Buddy Judge.
>>>
>>> Let's compile this information and alert Buddy Judge. At the least 
>>> he will have an explanation.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Whereas the "Song Info>File>Volume" value in iTunes reports -6.7, 
>>>> which is obviously a very close match to the measured result. Since 
>>>> this is the ?Legacy? Sound Check value, this song and other 
>>>> examples like it make me think that LUFS values aren?t being used 
>>>> yet, on Mac OS at least.
>>>>
>>>> Testing the results from iOS is tricky because of Apple?s copy 
>>>> protection, but if we make any progress with this I?ll let you know.
>>>>
>>>> I?ve emailed Buddy to ask about this, and will let you know if I 
>>>> get a reply - perhaps it?s just a glitch!
>>>>
>>>> Either way I wanted to make you aware so that we don?t jump the gun 
>>>> announcing the change.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm glad you wrote him!
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Ian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ***
>>>> Ian Shepherd
>>>> Mastering Media Ltd <http://mastering-media.co.uk/>?- Audio 
>>>> Mastering, Blu-ray and DVD?Excellence
>>>> http://twitter.com/ianshepherd
>>>>
>>>> <http://twitter.com/ianshepherd>Mastering Media Ltd,
>>>> Kemp House, 152 City Road, London, EC1V 2NX
>>>> Registered in England and Wales
>>>> Company No. 073500450
>>>>
>>>> Tel. +44(0)1487 842498
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>> -- 
>>> If you want good sound on your album, come to Bob Katz 407-831-0233 
>>> DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO Author: *Mastering Audio* Digital 
>>> Domain Website <https://www.digido.com/> No trees were killed in the 
>>> sending of this message. However a large number of electrons were 
>>> terribly inconvenienced.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> MLA mailing list
>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>
> -- 
> If you want good sound on your album, come to Bob Katz 407-831-0233 
> DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO Author: *Mastering Audio* Digital 
> Domain Website <https://www.digido.com/> No trees were killed in the 
> sending of this message. However a large number of electrons were 
> terribly inconvenienced.
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
-- 

If you want good sound on your album, come to Bob Katz 407-831-0233 
DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO Author: *Mastering Audio* Digital Domain 
Website <https://www.digido.com/> No trees were killed in the sending of 
this message. However a large number of electrons were terribly 
inconvenienced.
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From ian at mastering-media.co.uk  Thu Mar  3 20:46:22 2022
From: ian at mastering-media.co.uk (Ian Shepherd)
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 19:46:22 +0000
Subject: [MLA] Fwd: iPhone limiting problems caused by Sound Check ?
References: <AE0AAC55-8240-4E24-8FCE-5E4BD2113DAA@mastering-media.co.uk>
Message-ID: <A2C2D4FA-C1A6-4A3F-B68E-345DC6B82EC3@mastering-media.co.uk>


Hi All,

I just sent this message to Buddy, and thought you would be interested to see it, too.

Cheers,

Ian




> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: Ian Shepherd <ian at mastering-media.co.uk>
> Subject: iPhone limiting problems caused by Sound Check ?
> Date: 3 March 2022 at 19:42:05 GMT
> To: Buddy Judge <buddy at apple.com>
> 
> 
> Hi Buddy,
> 
> Over Christmas I was listening to some of my favourite classical carols, on AirPods Pro and via AirPlay to my AppleTV, and was surprised to hear what sounded like quite aggressive limiting. After a bit of experimentation I discovered that if I disabled Sound Check, this fixed the problem.
> 
> More recently, I?ve been listening to Apple Spatial renders of Dolby Atmos again. I?m pleased to hear that the binaural encoder has been updated, and this has helped a lot with some of the tonal problems I was hearing when I first contacted you about them last year. 
> 
> Again however, I started hearing what seemed to be unexpected dynamics processing, and after doing some tests today I?ve found that this is also being triggered when Sound Check is enabled. (I?ve confirmed both these observations by capturing the output of the iPhone and performing null tests.)
> 
> In a nutshell, both the classical carols and Atmos material are being boosted in level by Sound Check, and the limiter is clamping down to prevent clipping. It?s much more noticeable on the classical material, which is being lifted considerably, but also audible on Atmos material like ?Chandelier? by Sia, and ?Roar? by Katy Perry, both of which are only being boosted by a dB or two.
> 
> This seems like a real shame, especially since the enhanced dynamics are one of the best things about Atmos, and Sound Check will now be enabled by default. Luckily I think there's a potentially straightforward fix for Dolby Atmos, since the loudest mixes are required by Dolby to be @ -18 LUFS. If the Sound Check level were simply adjusted to -18 LUFS instead of -16, this would be a big help for the Atmos material. 
> 
> And in fact if Sound Check simply acted to prevent level increases that would cause clipping (as it used to) this would help with classical material too, without an adverse effect on mainstream material, since the majority of material in popular genres is already quite a bit louder. 
> 
> I think this is quite important to sort out, because we?ve already seen lots of push-back about normalisation, and I think people will be quite upset by the idea that iOS devices are adding extra limiting.
> 
> Sorry for the long message, I hope all that makes sense, and please let me know if you need extra info.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Ian

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From gatewaybob at mac.com  Thu Mar  3 21:12:52 2022
From: gatewaybob at mac.com (Bob Ludwig)
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 15:12:52 -0500
Subject: [MLA] Fwd: iPhone limiting problems caused by Sound Check ?
In-Reply-To: <A2C2D4FA-C1A6-4A3F-B68E-345DC6B82EC3@mastering-media.co.uk>
References: <A2C2D4FA-C1A6-4A3F-B68E-345DC6B82EC3@mastering-media.co.uk>
Message-ID: <D44B3BAF-B2B7-4811-9C68-728CE21BFF57@mac.com>

Ian,
Thank you so much for attending to these crucial matters.
I hadn?t heard that Apple changed their once near perfect no-limiter system for Sound Check to this new unfortunate choice.  I hope they will consider your recommendations.

Best,

Bob





On Mar 3, 2022, at 2:46 PM, Ian Shepherd <ian at mastering-media.co.uk> wrote:

?

Hi All,

I just sent this message to Buddy, and thought you would be interested to see it, too.

Cheers,

Ian




> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: Ian Shepherd <ian at mastering-media.co.uk>
> Subject: iPhone limiting problems caused by Sound Check ?
> Date: 3 March 2022 at 19:42:05 GMT
> To: Buddy Judge <buddy at apple.com>
> 
> 
> Hi Buddy,
> 
> Over Christmas I was listening to some of my favourite classical carols, on AirPods Pro and via AirPlay to my AppleTV, and was surprised to hear what sounded like quite aggressive limiting. After a bit of experimentation I discovered that if I disabled Sound Check, this fixed the problem.
> 
> More recently, I?ve been listening to Apple Spatial renders of Dolby Atmos again. I?m pleased to hear that the binaural encoder has been updated, and this has helped a lot with some of the tonal problems I was hearing when I first contacted you about them last year. 
> 
> Again however, I started hearing what seemed to be unexpected dynamics processing, and after doing some tests today I?ve found that this is also being triggered when Sound Check is enabled. (I?ve confirmed both these observations by capturing the output of the iPhone and performing null tests.)
> 
> In a nutshell, both the classical carols and Atmos material are being boosted in level by Sound Check, and the limiter is clamping down to prevent clipping. It?s much more noticeable on the classical material, which is being lifted considerably, but also audible on Atmos material like ?Chandelier? by Sia, and ?Roar? by Katy Perry, both of which are only being boosted by a dB or two.
> 
> This seems like a real shame, especially since the enhanced dynamics are one of the best things about Atmos, and Sound Check will now be enabled by default. Luckily I think there's a potentially straightforward fix for Dolby Atmos, since the loudest mixes are required by Dolby to be @ -18 LUFS. If the Sound Check level were simply adjusted to -18 LUFS instead of -16, this would be a big help for the Atmos material. 
> 
> And in fact if Sound Check simply acted to prevent level increases that would cause clipping (as it used to) this would help with classical material too, without an adverse effect on mainstream material, since the majority of material in popular genres is already quite a bit louder. 
> 
> I think this is quite important to sort out, because we?ve already seen lots of push-back about normalisation, and I think people will be quite upset by the idea that iOS devices are adding extra limiting.
> 
> Sorry for the long message, I hope all that makes sense, and please let me know if you need extra info.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Ian

_______________________________________________
MLA mailing list
MLA at grimmaudio.nl
http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
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From ian at mastering-media.co.uk  Fri Mar  4 01:00:24 2022
From: ian at mastering-media.co.uk (Ian Shepherd)
Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 00:00:24 +0000
Subject: [MLA] Fwd: iPhone limiting problems caused by Sound Check ?
In-Reply-To: <D44B3BAF-B2B7-4811-9C68-728CE21BFF57@mac.com>
References: <A2C2D4FA-C1A6-4A3F-B68E-345DC6B82EC3@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<D44B3BAF-B2B7-4811-9C68-728CE21BFF57@mac.com>
Message-ID: <E45DCC9A-6DF1-4100-AE00-979534819862@mastering-media.co.uk>


Hi Bob,

No problem - keeping an eye on all this is an important part of running the Loudness Penalty site, at this stage.

Just to be clear, this may be an iPhone-only issue rather than a global change to Sound Check, it?s still early days so we still need to do more testing. Having said that, I get the impression that these latest changes have been made largely in response to the very large differences in level between Atmos and stereo mixes, and as such they may have been rushed through as a result, which isn?t usually Apple?s way of doing things.

I?ll keep you all posted on any reply?

Ian




> On 3 Mar 2022, at 20:12, Bob Ludwig <gatewaybob at mac.com> wrote:
> 
> Ian,
> Thank you so much for attending to these crucial matters.
> I hadn?t heard that Apple changed their once near perfect no-limiter system for Sound Check to this new unfortunate choice.  I hope they will consider your recommendations.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mar 3, 2022, at 2:46 PM, Ian Shepherd <ian at mastering-media.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> I just sent this message to Buddy, and thought you would be interested to see it, too.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Ian
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> Begin forwarded message:
>> 
>> From: Ian Shepherd <ian at mastering-media.co.uk <mailto:ian at mastering-media.co.uk>>
>> Subject: iPhone limiting problems caused by Sound Check ?
>> Date: 3 March 2022 at 19:42:05 GMT
>> To: Buddy Judge <buddy at apple.com <mailto:buddy at apple.com>>
>> 
>> 
>> Hi Buddy,
>> 
>> Over Christmas I was listening to some of my favourite classical carols, on AirPods Pro and via AirPlay to my AppleTV, and was surprised to hear what sounded like quite aggressive limiting. After a bit of experimentation I discovered that if I disabled Sound Check, this fixed the problem.
>> 
>> More recently, I?ve been listening to Apple Spatial renders of Dolby Atmos again. I?m pleased to hear that the binaural encoder has been updated, and this has helped a lot with some of the tonal problems I was hearing when I first contacted you about them last year. 
>> 
>> Again however, I started hearing what seemed to be unexpected dynamics processing, and after doing some tests today I?ve found that this is also being triggered when Sound Check is enabled. (I?ve confirmed both these observations by capturing the output of the iPhone and performing null tests.)
>> 
>> In a nutshell, both the classical carols and Atmos material are being boosted in level by Sound Check, and the limiter is clamping down to prevent clipping. It?s much more noticeable on the classical material, which is being lifted considerably, but also audible on Atmos material like ?Chandelier? by Sia, and ?Roar? by Katy Perry, both of which are only being boosted by a dB or two.
>> 
>> This seems like a real shame, especially since the enhanced dynamics are one of the best things about Atmos, and Sound Check will now be enabled by default. Luckily I think there's a potentially straightforward fix for Dolby Atmos, since the loudest mixes are required by Dolby to be @ -18 LUFS. If the Sound Check level were simply adjusted to -18 LUFS instead of -16, this would be a big help for the Atmos material. 
>> 
>> And in fact if Sound Check simply acted to prevent level increases that would cause clipping (as it used to) this would help with classical material too, without an adverse effect on mainstream material, since the majority of material in popular genres is already quite a bit louder. 
>> 
>> I think this is quite important to sort out, because we?ve already seen lots of push-back about normalisation, and I think people will be quite upset by the idea that iOS devices are adding extra limiting.
>> 
>> Sorry for the long message, I hope all that makes sense, and please let me know if you need extra info.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> Ian
> 
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl

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From gatewaybob at mac.com  Fri Mar  4 03:14:06 2022
From: gatewaybob at mac.com (Bob Ludwig)
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 21:14:06 -0500
Subject: [MLA] Fwd: iPhone limiting problems caused by Sound Check ?
In-Reply-To: <E45DCC9A-6DF1-4100-AE00-979534819862@mastering-media.co.uk>
References: <E45DCC9A-6DF1-4100-AE00-979534819862@mastering-media.co.uk>
Message-ID: <46AD7F5D-00D8-4235-97CA-7510EB53DE3A@mac.com>

Thanks, Ian,

Who could ever have imagined that Dolby Atmos would be the driving force to make Apple turn on Sound Check by default!

Are you ?mastering? any Atmos projects?  I?m still new to it, I can?t figure out how it could be Mastered without actually remixing it.

All my best,

Bob L



On Mar 3, 2022, at 7:00 PM, Ian Shepherd <ian at mastering-media.co.uk> wrote
Hi Bob,

No problem - keeping an eye on all this is an important part of running the Loudness Penalty site, at this stage.

Just to be clear, this may be an iPhone-only issue rather than a global change to Sound Check, it?s still early days so we still need to do more testing. Having said that, I get the impression that these latest changes have been made largely in response to the very large differences in level between Atmos and stereo mixes, and as such they may have been rushed through as a result, which isn?t usually Apple?s way of doing things.

I?ll keep you all posted on any reply?

Ian




> On 3 Mar 2022, at 20:12, Bob Ludwig <gatewaybob at mac.com> wrote:
> 
> Ian,
> Thank you so much for attending to these crucial matters.
> I hadn?t heard that Apple changed their once near perfect no-limiter system for Sound Check to this new unfortunate choice.  I hope they will consider your recommendations.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mar 3, 2022, at 2:46 PM, Ian Shepherd <ian at mastering-media.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> I just sent this message to Buddy, and thought you would be interested to see it, too.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Ian
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> Begin forwarded message:
>> 
>> From: Ian Shepherd <ian at mastering-media.co.uk>
>> Subject: iPhone limiting problems caused by Sound Check ?
>> Date: 3 March 2022 at 19:42:05 GMT
>> To: Buddy Judge <buddy at apple.com>
>> 
>> 
>> Hi Buddy,
>> 
>> Over Christmas I was listening to some of my favourite classical carols, on AirPods Pro and via AirPlay to my AppleTV, and was surprised to hear what sounded like quite aggressive limiting. After a bit of experimentation I discovered that if I disabled Sound Check, this fixed the problem.
>> 
>> More recently, I?ve been listening to Apple Spatial renders of Dolby Atmos again. I?m pleased to hear that the binaural encoder has been updated, and this has helped a lot with some of the tonal problems I was hearing when I first contacted you about them last year. 
>> 
>> Again however, I started hearing what seemed to be unexpected dynamics processing, and after doing some tests today I?ve found that this is also being triggered when Sound Check is enabled. (I?ve confirmed both these observations by capturing the output of the iPhone and performing null tests.)
>> 
>> In a nutshell, both the classical carols and Atmos material are being boosted in level by Sound Check, and the limiter is clamping down to prevent clipping. It?s much more noticeable on the classical material, which is being lifted considerably, but also audible on Atmos material like ?Chandelier? by Sia, and ?Roar? by Katy Perry, both of which are only being boosted by a dB or two.
>> 
>> This seems like a real shame, especially since the enhanced dynamics are one of the best things about Atmos, and Sound Check will now be enabled by default. Luckily I think there's a potentially straightforward fix for Dolby Atmos, since the loudest mixes are required by Dolby to be @ -18 LUFS. If the Sound Check level were simply adjusted to -18 LUFS instead of -16, this would be a big help for the Atmos material. 
>> 
>> And in fact if Sound Check simply acted to prevent level increases that would cause clipping (as it used to) this would help with classical material too, without an adverse effect on mainstream material, since the majority of material in popular genres is already quite a bit louder. 
>> 
>> I think this is quite important to sort out, because we?ve already seen lots of push-back about normalisation, and I think people will be quite upset by the idea that iOS devices are adding extra limiting.
>> 
>> Sorry for the long message, I hope all that makes sense, and please let me know if you need extra info.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> Ian
> 
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl

_______________________________________________
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MLA at grimmaudio.nl
http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
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From bobkatz at digido.com  Fri Mar  4 14:58:44 2022
From: bobkatz at digido.com (Bob Katz)
Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 08:58:44 -0500
Subject: [MLA] Fwd: iPhone limiting problems caused by Sound Check ?
In-Reply-To: <E45DCC9A-6DF1-4100-AE00-979534819862@mastering-media.co.uk>
References: <E45DCC9A-6DF1-4100-AE00-979534819862@mastering-media.co.uk>
Message-ID: <7C6DFABF-B283-4EF9-AD69-5705A1A48CFF@digido.com>

We actually have Atmos and their -18 lufs t max rule to thank for this late stage push for Sound Check. Everything I hear is that the management (above Buddy?s level) resisted making Sound Check a default. It is (was) a goddamm shame. But now we have traction. Ian - thanks for your diligence. Finally we may get some action. 

We have to get them to stop upward normalizing. That?s part of the old Soundcheck. I hope it?s been removed when they switch to lufs. 

Bob

My iPhone made me write this. Quotes only below this line. Nothing more to see here. 
----------------------------------------------------

> On Mar 3, 2022, at 7:01 PM, Ian Shepherd <ian at mastering-media.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?
> 
> Hi Bob,
> 
> No problem - keeping an eye on all this is an important part of running the Loudness Penalty site, at this stage.
> 
> Just to be clear, this may be an iPhone-only issue rather than a global change to Sound Check, it?s still early days so we still need to do more testing. Having said that, I get the impression that these latest changes have been made largely in response to the very large differences in level between Atmos and stereo mixes, and as such they may have been rushed through as a result, which isn?t usually Apple?s way of doing things.
> 
> I?ll keep you all posted on any reply?
> 
> Ian
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On 3 Mar 2022, at 20:12, Bob Ludwig <gatewaybob at mac.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Ian,
>> Thank you so much for attending to these crucial matters.
>> I hadn?t heard that Apple changed their once near perfect no-limiter system for Sound Check to this new unfortunate choice.  I hope they will consider your recommendations.
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Mar 3, 2022, at 2:46 PM, Ian Shepherd <ian at mastering-media.co.uk> wrote:
>> 
>> ?
>> 
>> Hi All,
>> 
>> I just sent this message to Buddy, and thought you would be interested to see it, too.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> Ian
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>> 
>>> From: Ian Shepherd <ian at mastering-media.co.uk>
>>> Subject: iPhone limiting problems caused by Sound Check ?
>>> Date: 3 March 2022 at 19:42:05 GMT
>>> To: Buddy Judge <buddy at apple.com>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hi Buddy,
>>> 
>>> Over Christmas I was listening to some of my favourite classical carols, on AirPods Pro and via AirPlay to my AppleTV, and was surprised to hear what sounded like quite aggressive limiting. After a bit of experimentation I discovered that if I disabled Sound Check, this fixed the problem.
>>> 
>>> More recently, I?ve been listening to Apple Spatial renders of Dolby Atmos again. I?m pleased to hear that the binaural encoder has been updated, and this has helped a lot with some of the tonal problems I was hearing when I first contacted you about them last year. 
>>> 
>>> Again however, I started hearing what seemed to be unexpected dynamics processing, and after doing some tests today I?ve found that this is also being triggered when Sound Check is enabled. (I?ve confirmed both these observations by capturing the output of the iPhone and performing null tests.)
>>> 
>>> In a nutshell, both the classical carols and Atmos material are being boosted in level by Sound Check, and the limiter is clamping down to prevent clipping. It?s much more noticeable on the classical material, which is being lifted considerably, but also audible on Atmos material like ?Chandelier? by Sia, and ?Roar? by Katy Perry, both of which are only being boosted by a dB or two.
>>> 
>>> This seems like a real shame, especially since the enhanced dynamics are one of the best things about Atmos, and Sound Check will now be enabled by default. Luckily I think there's a potentially straightforward fix for Dolby Atmos, since the loudest mixes are required by Dolby to be @ -18 LUFS. If the Sound Check level were simply adjusted to -18 LUFS instead of -16, this would be a big help for the Atmos material. 
>>> 
>>> And in fact if Sound Check simply acted to prevent level increases that would cause clipping (as it used to) this would help with classical material too, without an adverse effect on mainstream material, since the majority of material in popular genres is already quite a bit louder. 
>>> 
>>> I think this is quite important to sort out, because we?ve already seen lots of push-back about normalisation, and I think people will be quite upset by the idea that iOS devices are adding extra limiting.
>>> 
>>> Sorry for the long message, I hope all that makes sense, and please let me know if you need extra info.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> 
>>> Ian
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
> 
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
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From ian at mastering-media.co.uk  Fri Mar  4 17:16:42 2022
From: ian at mastering-media.co.uk (Ian Shepherd)
Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 16:16:42 +0000
Subject: [MLA] Fwd: iPhone limiting problems caused by Sound Check ?
In-Reply-To: <46AD7F5D-00D8-4235-97CA-7510EB53DE3A@mac.com>
References: <E45DCC9A-6DF1-4100-AE00-979534819862@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<46AD7F5D-00D8-4235-97CA-7510EB53DE3A@mac.com>
Message-ID: <B24D8AA7-11AB-45E7-B168-865E3DCB2867@mastering-media.co.uk>


Hi Bob,

> Who could ever have imagined that Dolby Atmos would be the driving force to make Apple turn on Sound Check by default!

I agree, it was an unexpected bonus - as is the dynamic sound of many of the Atmos mixes ?

> Are you ?mastering? any Atmos projects?  I?m still new to it, I can?t figure out how it could be Mastered without actually remixing it.


I?m not working in Atmos myself yet - but I heard that Steve Genewick set up a room at his home during the lockdown with great success, which tempts me to try experimenting with the format even though I don?t have the space or budget for a full-size rig.

I talked about Atmos mastering to Mike Hillier & Emre Ramazanoglu on the latest episode of my podcast - there?s certainly a very blurred line between mixing and mastering, but ADM files can be re-imported and ?stem mastered? using linked EQ and compression, apparently. They both think there will be a lot of demand for mastering going forward as more people attempt to work in Atmos on smaller, ad-hock setups or even headphones.

Ian



From ian at mastering-media.co.uk  Tue Mar 15 17:26:35 2022
From: ian at mastering-media.co.uk (Ian Shepherd)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 16:26:35 +0000
Subject: [MLA] DRD 2022
Message-ID: <B12EB964-71FC-40CE-92DE-0ECB5A32C16B@mastering-media.co.uk>


Hi All,

Dynamic Range Day 2022 is next Friday (25th) - please let me know if there are any releases you?ve noticed or worked on in the last 12 months that you think would make good nominees for the Award !

Ian



***
Ian Shepherd
Mastering Media Ltd <http://mastering-media.co.uk/> - Audio Mastering, Blu-ray and DVD Excellence
http://twitter.com/ianshepherd <http://twitter.com/ianshepherd>

 <http://twitter.com/ianshepherd>Mastering Media Ltd,
Kemp House, 152 City Road, London, EC1V 2NX
Registered in England and Wales 
Company No. 073500450

Tel. +44(0)1487 842498

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From eelco at grimmaudio.com  Fri Mar 18 00:03:20 2022
From: eelco at grimmaudio.com (Grimm | Eelco)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 00:03:20 +0100
Subject: [MLA] DRD 2022
In-Reply-To: <B12EB964-71FC-40CE-92DE-0ECB5A32C16B@mastering-media.co.uk>
References: <B12EB964-71FC-40CE-92DE-0ECB5A32C16B@mastering-media.co.uk>
Message-ID: <E003AB1B-992E-4840-AF07-981A3A1CF6F7@grimmaudio.com>

Hi Ian,

My friend and mix/mastering engineer Wessel Oltheten likes to send in these tracks: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vvu4nh3xGX0 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vvu4nh3xGX0>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hR256dZM3G0&list=LL&index=46 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hR256dZM3G0&list=LL&index=46>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNnGuNhCB6I&list=LL&index=29 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNnGuNhCB6I&list=LL&index=29>

He nominates these tracks because these styles were usually much more compressed. Since a few years all his masters are already -14-ish, his (Indy) customers stopped asking for louder once they noticed that it didn't work on Spotify? At the moment loudness is no issue anymore according to him (last year he mixed and mastered 862 tracks?).

Is there anything he needs to do to participate? You can reach out to him directly: Wessel Oltheten <info at wesseloltheten.nl <mailto:info at wesseloltheten.nl>>

All the best,
Eelco

> On 15 Mar 2022, at 17:26, Ian Shepherd <ian at mastering-media.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> Dynamic Range Day 2022 is next Friday (25th) - please let me know if there are any releases you?ve noticed or worked on in the last 12 months that you think would make good nominees for the Award !
> 
> Ian
> 
> 
> 
> ***
> Ian Shepherd
> Mastering Media Ltd <http://mastering-media.co.uk/> - Audio Mastering, Blu-ray and DVD Excellence
> http://twitter.com/ianshepherd <http://twitter.com/ianshepherd>
> 
>  <http://twitter.com/ianshepherd>Mastering Media Ltd,
> Kemp House, 152 City Road, London, EC1V 2NX
> Registered in England and Wales 
> Company No. 073500450
> 
> Tel. +44(0)1487 842498
> 
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl

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From ian at mastering-media.co.uk  Wed Mar 23 19:41:54 2022
From: ian at mastering-media.co.uk (Ian Shepherd)
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 18:41:54 +0000
Subject: [MLA] DRD 2022
In-Reply-To: <E003AB1B-992E-4840-AF07-981A3A1CF6F7@grimmaudio.com>
References: <B12EB964-71FC-40CE-92DE-0ECB5A32C16B@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<E003AB1B-992E-4840-AF07-981A3A1CF6F7@grimmaudio.com>
Message-ID: <5D269363-549A-45AA-931C-CA75C3244769@mastering-media.co.uk>


Hi Eelco,

These are great, thanks for sending them! This year I?m focusing on Dolby Atmos and have already chosen a winner for the Award, but I?ve included the Reindier album in the shortlist. 

I?ll certainly reach out to Wessel to talk to him more about his work.

Thanks again !

Ian



> On 17 Mar 2022, at 23:03, Grimm | Eelco <eelco at grimmaudio.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Ian,
> 
> My friend and mix/mastering engineer Wessel Oltheten likes to send in these tracks: 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vvu4nh3xGX0 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vvu4nh3xGX0>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hR256dZM3G0&list=LL&index=46 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hR256dZM3G0&list=LL&index=46>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNnGuNhCB6I&list=LL&index=29 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNnGuNhCB6I&list=LL&index=29>
> 
> He nominates these tracks because these styles were usually much more compressed. Since a few years all his masters are already -14-ish, his (Indy) customers stopped asking for louder once they noticed that it didn't work on Spotify? At the moment loudness is no issue anymore according to him (last year he mixed and mastered 862 tracks?).
> 
> Is there anything he needs to do to participate? You can reach out to him directly: Wessel Oltheten <info at wesseloltheten.nl <mailto:info at wesseloltheten.nl>>
> 
> All the best,
> Eelco
> 
>> On 15 Mar 2022, at 17:26, Ian Shepherd <ian at mastering-media.co.uk <mailto:ian at mastering-media.co.uk>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Hi All,
>> 
>> Dynamic Range Day 2022 is next Friday (25th) - please let me know if there are any releases you?ve noticed or worked on in the last 12 months that you think would make good nominees for the Award !
>> 
>> Ian
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ***
>> Ian Shepherd
>> Mastering Media Ltd <http://mastering-media.co.uk/> - Audio Mastering, Blu-ray and DVD Excellence
>> http://twitter.com/ianshepherd <http://twitter.com/ianshepherd>
>> 
>>  <http://twitter.com/ianshepherd>Mastering Media Ltd,
>> Kemp House, 152 City Road, London, EC1V 2NX
>> Registered in England and Wales 
>> Company No. 073500450
>> 
>> Tel. +44(0)1487 842498
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
> 
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl

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From ian at mastering-media.co.uk  Wed Mar 30 12:31:15 2022
From: ian at mastering-media.co.uk (Ian Shepherd)
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 11:31:15 +0100
Subject: [MLA] Fwd: iPhone limiting issue solved ? (Headphone safety)
References: <BC2EC774-E7B3-4EE0-8138-0C11113DB60B@mastering-media.co.uk>
Message-ID: <722DA312-252C-4E76-938F-B4C2DA657DCF@mastering-media.co.uk>


Hi All, 

I thought you might be interested to see this.

Ian


> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: Ian Shepherd <ian at mastering-media.co.uk>
> Subject: iPhone limiting issue solved ? (Headphone safety)
> Date: 30 March 2022 at 11:30:15 BST
> To: Buddy Judge <buddy at apple.com>
> 
> 
> Hi Buddy,
> 
> I emailed you recently about apparent limiting I was hearing & measuring on my iPhone when Sound Check was enabled, and I think I?ve got to the bottom of it. Apologies if this is something you?re already aware of, but it seems to be related to a setting that I didn?t previously know about:
> 
> Sounds & Haptics > Headphone Safety > Reduce Loud Sounds
> 
> In a nutshell, disabling this makes Sound Check behave as I would expect, ie. no limiting when enabled. It was enabled by default for me as a European user, and set to ?85 decibels?. It seems that when this setting is enabled, the increase in level due to Sound Check is sufficient to trigger this safety limiting, resulting in aggressive dynamics attenuation. Specifically, the gain was reduced by over 4 dB on the classical piece I first noticed it with, which is highly audible and unfortunate.
> 
> I realise that this behaviour isn?t a bug, it?s a feature. With Sound Check enabled, the music is lifted far enough to trigger the safety limiting. For classical you could argue that this is unavoidable, because of the wide dynamic range, but as I mentioned I?ve also heard and measured it when playing back Atmos mixes with Sound Check enabled, which is a much more mainstream use-case, and seems a shame.
> 
> Having said all that, the main reason for this message is that in my testing the safety limiting is being triggered independently of the volume control. I?m not in the habit of listening super-loud on my phone, and even when I turn the playback volume way down, far below 85 dB even at the loudest moments, I?m hearing the aggressive volume reductions when Reduce Loud Sounds is enabled. In fact, I can hear it affecting the level simply by changing the threshold in settings, even with the volume only a few steps up from the minimum.
> 
> This seems unnecessary, if its intentional. Shouldn?t the safety limiting be dependent on the actual playback level ? Otherwise it will affect the music even when the volume is low, and perhaps more importantly won?t necessarily protect users? hearing when they choose to turn up the volume for loud music.
> 
> Two Atmos mixes where the safety limiting kicks in when Sound Check is enabled are ?Chandelier? by Sia and ?Roar? by Katy Perry. The classical piece I?ve been using for testing is here:
> 
> https://music.apple.com/gb/album/the-shepherds-carol/695609721?i=695610093 <https://music.apple.com/gb/album/the-shepherds-carol/695609721?i=695610093>
> 
> The safety limiting is clearly audible at 1:30 to 1:40
> 
> Again apologies if this is all something you?re already aware of!
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Ian
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ***
> Ian Shepherd
> Mastering Media Ltd <http://mastering-media.co.uk/> - Audio Mastering, Blu-ray and DVD Excellence
> http://twitter.com/ianshepherd <http://twitter.com/ianshepherd>
> 
>  <http://twitter.com/ianshepherd>Mastering Media Ltd,
> Kemp House, 152 City Road, London, EC1V 2NX
> Registered in England and Wales 
> Company No. 073500450
> 
> Tel. +44(0)1487 842498
> 

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From bobkatz at digido.com  Wed Mar 30 16:17:18 2022
From: bobkatz at digido.com (Bob Katz)
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 10:17:18 -0400
Subject: [MLA] Fwd: iPhone limiting issue solved ? (Headphone safety)
In-Reply-To: <722DA312-252C-4E76-938F-B4C2DA657DCF@mastering-media.co.uk>
References: <BC2EC774-E7B3-4EE0-8138-0C11113DB60B@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<722DA312-252C-4E76-938F-B4C2DA657DCF@mastering-media.co.uk>
Message-ID: <03a6842d-081d-c811-d7f7-76b4ca968c19@digido.com>

To complicate matters, European (and UK I think) phones are subject to 
the Cenelec legislation, which is up for revision. So I'm not sure if 
this applies to U.S. phones



Bob



On 3/30/22 6:31 AM, Ian Shepherd wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I thought you might be interested to see this.
>
> Ian
>
>
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>> *From: *Ian Shepherd <ian at mastering-media.co.uk>
>> *Subject: **iPhone limiting issue solved ? (Headphone safety)*
>> *Date: *30 March 2022 at 11:30:15 BST
>> *To: *Buddy Judge <buddy at apple.com>
>>
>>
>> Hi Buddy,
>>
>> I emailed you recently about apparent limiting I was hearing & 
>> measuring on my iPhone when Sound Check was enabled, and I think I?ve 
>> got to the bottom of it. Apologies if this is something you?re 
>> already aware of, but it seems to be related to a setting that I 
>> didn?t previously know about:
>>
>> Sounds & Haptics > Headphone Safety > Reduce Loud Sounds
>>
>> In a nutshell, disabling this makes Sound Check behave as I would 
>> expect, ie. no limiting when enabled. It was enabled by default for 
>> me as a European user, and set to ?85 decibels?. It seems that when 
>> this setting is enabled, the increase in level due to Sound Check is 
>> sufficient to trigger this safety limiting, resulting in aggressive 
>> dynamics attenuation. Specifically, the gain was reduced by over 4 dB 
>> on the classical piece I first noticed it with, which is highly 
>> audible and unfortunate.
>>
>> I realise that this behaviour isn?t a bug, it?s a feature. With Sound 
>> Check enabled, the music is lifted far enough to trigger the safety 
>> limiting. For classical you could argue that this is unavoidable, 
>> because of the wide dynamic range, but as I mentioned I?ve also heard 
>> and measured it when playing back Atmos mixes with Sound Check 
>> enabled, which is a much more mainstream use-case, and seems a shame.
>>
>> Having said all that, the main reason for this message is that in my 
>> testing the safety limiting is being triggered independently of the 
>> volume control. I?m not in the habit of listening super-loud on my 
>> phone, and even when I turn the playback volume way down, far below 
>> 85 dB even at the loudest moments, I?m hearing the aggressive volume 
>> reductions when Reduce Loud Sounds is enabled. In fact, I can hear it 
>> affecting the level simply by changing the threshold in settings, 
>> even with the volume only a few steps up from the minimum.
>>
>> This seems unnecessary, if its intentional. Shouldn?t the safety 
>> limiting be dependent on the actual playback level ? Otherwise it 
>> will affect the music even when the volume is low, and perhaps more 
>> importantly won?t necessarily protect users? hearing when they choose 
>> to turn up the volume for loud music.
>>
>> Two Atmos mixes where the safety limiting kicks in when Sound Check 
>> is enabled are ?Chandelier? by Sia and ?Roar? by Katy Perry. The 
>> classical piece I?ve been using for testing is here:
>>
>> https://music.apple.com/gb/album/the-shepherds-carol/695609721?i=695610093
>>
>> The safety limiting is clearly audible at 1:30 to 1:40
>>
>> Again apologies if this is all something you?re already aware of!
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Ian
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ***
>> Ian Shepherd
>> Mastering Media Ltd <http://mastering-media.co.uk/>?- Audio 
>> Mastering, Blu-ray and DVD?Excellence
>> http://twitter.com/ianshepherd
>>
>> <http://twitter.com/ianshepherd>Mastering Media Ltd,
>> Kemp House, 152 City Road, London, EC1V 2NX
>> Registered in England and Wales
>> Company No. 073500450
>>
>> Tel. +44(0)1487 842498
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
-- 

If you want good sound on your album, come to Bob Katz 407-831-0233 
DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO Author: *Mastering Audio* Digital Domain 
Website <https://www.digido.com/> No trees were killed in the sending of 
this message. However a large number of electrons were terribly 
inconvenienced.
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From ian at mastering-media.co.uk  Wed Mar 30 16:32:29 2022
From: ian at mastering-media.co.uk (Ian Shepherd)
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 15:32:29 +0100
Subject: [MLA] Fwd: iPhone limiting issue solved ? (Headphone safety)
In-Reply-To: <03a6842d-081d-c811-d7f7-76b4ca968c19@digido.com>
References: <BC2EC774-E7B3-4EE0-8138-0C11113DB60B@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<722DA312-252C-4E76-938F-B4C2DA657DCF@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<03a6842d-081d-c811-d7f7-76b4ca968c19@digido.com>
Message-ID: <E7ED7D26-5C8C-496B-9804-EB575CBE800D@mastering-media.co.uk>


I think the setting will be there but maybe not active by default ?



> On 30 Mar 2022, at 15:17, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com> wrote:
> 
> To complicate matters, European (and UK I think) phones are subject to the Cenelec legislation, which is up for revision. So I'm not sure if this applies to U.S. phones
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 3/30/22 6:31 AM, Ian Shepherd wrote:
>> 
>> Hi All, 
>> 
>> I thought you might be interested to see this.
>> 
>> Ian
>> 
>> 
>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>> 
>>> From: Ian Shepherd <ian at mastering-media.co.uk <mailto:ian at mastering-media.co.uk>>
>>> Subject: iPhone limiting issue solved ? (Headphone safety)
>>> Date: 30 March 2022 at 11:30:15 BST
>>> To: Buddy Judge <buddy at apple.com <mailto:buddy at apple.com>>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hi Buddy,
>>> 
>>> I emailed you recently about apparent limiting I was hearing & measuring on my iPhone when Sound Check was enabled, and I think I?ve got to the bottom of it. Apologies if this is something you?re already aware of, but it seems to be related to a setting that I didn?t previously know about:
>>> 
>>> Sounds & Haptics > Headphone Safety > Reduce Loud Sounds
>>> 
>>> In a nutshell, disabling this makes Sound Check behave as I would expect, ie. no limiting when enabled. It was enabled by default for me as a European user, and set to ?85 decibels?. It seems that when this setting is enabled, the increase in level due to Sound Check is sufficient to trigger this safety limiting, resulting in aggressive dynamics attenuation. Specifically, the gain was reduced by over 4 dB on the classical piece I first noticed it with, which is highly audible and unfortunate.
>>> 
>>> I realise that this behaviour isn?t a bug, it?s a feature. With Sound Check enabled, the music is lifted far enough to trigger the safety limiting. For classical you could argue that this is unavoidable, because of the wide dynamic range, but as I mentioned I?ve also heard and measured it when playing back Atmos mixes with Sound Check enabled, which is a much more mainstream use-case, and seems a shame.
>>> 
>>> Having said all that, the main reason for this message is that in my testing the safety limiting is being triggered independently of the volume control. I?m not in the habit of listening super-loud on my phone, and even when I turn the playback volume way down, far below 85 dB even at the loudest moments, I?m hearing the aggressive volume reductions when Reduce Loud Sounds is enabled. In fact, I can hear it affecting the level simply by changing the threshold in settings, even with the volume only a few steps up from the minimum.
>>> 
>>> This seems unnecessary, if its intentional. Shouldn?t the safety limiting be dependent on the actual playback level ? Otherwise it will affect the music even when the volume is low, and perhaps more importantly won?t necessarily protect users? hearing when they choose to turn up the volume for loud music.
>>> 
>>> Two Atmos mixes where the safety limiting kicks in when Sound Check is enabled are ?Chandelier? by Sia and ?Roar? by Katy Perry. The classical piece I?ve been using for testing is here:
>>> 
>>> https://music.apple.com/gb/album/the-shepherds-carol/695609721?i=695610093 <https://music.apple.com/gb/album/the-shepherds-carol/695609721?i=695610093>
>>> 
>>> The safety limiting is clearly audible at 1:30 to 1:40
>>> 
>>> Again apologies if this is all something you?re already aware of!
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> 
>>> Ian
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ***
>>> Ian Shepherd
>>> Mastering Media Ltd <http://mastering-media.co.uk/> - Audio Mastering, Blu-ray and DVD Excellence
>>> http://twitter.com/ianshepherd <http://twitter.com/ianshepherd>
>>> 
>>>  <http://twitter.com/ianshepherd>Mastering Media Ltd,
>>> Kemp House, 152 City Road, London, EC1V 2NX
>>> Registered in England and Wales 
>>> Company No. 073500450
>>> 
>>> Tel. +44(0)1487 842498
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl <http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl>
> -- 
> 
> 
> If you want good sound on your album, come to
> Bob Katz 407-831-0233 DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
> Author: Mastering Audio
> Digital Domain Website <https://www.digido.com/>
> 
> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl

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From bobkatz at digido.com  Wed Mar 30 17:02:50 2022
From: bobkatz at digido.com (Bob Katz)
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 11:02:50 -0400
Subject: [MLA] Fwd: iPhone limiting issue solved ? (Headphone safety)
In-Reply-To: <E7ED7D26-5C8C-496B-9804-EB575CBE800D@mastering-media.co.uk>
References: <BC2EC774-E7B3-4EE0-8138-0C11113DB60B@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<722DA312-252C-4E76-938F-B4C2DA657DCF@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<03a6842d-081d-c811-d7f7-76b4ca968c19@digido.com>
	<E7ED7D26-5C8C-496B-9804-EB575CBE800D@mastering-media.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4789dc2d-e27a-4358-1ca2-7c69f39857cf@digido.com>

Yes, the setting is there, but not activated by default. I'm glad you 
made me look!


Of course the "85 dB" is ficticious.... maybe it's tied to the 
sensitivity of Apple Ear buds. But it could be VERY far off for any 
other earphone.


Bob



On 3/30/22 10:32 AM, Ian Shepherd wrote:
>
> I think the setting will be there but maybe not active by default ?
>
>
>
>> On 30 Mar 2022, at 15:17, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com> wrote:
>>
>> To complicate matters, European (and UK I think) phones are subject 
>> to the Cenelec legislation, which is up for revision. So I'm not sure 
>> if this applies to U.S. phones
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/30/22 6:31 AM, Ian Shepherd wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I thought you might be interested to see this.
>>>
>>> Ian
>>>
>>>
>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>
>>>> *From: *Ian Shepherd <ian at mastering-media.co.uk>
>>>> *Subject: **iPhone limiting issue solved ? (Headphone safety)*
>>>> *Date: *30 March 2022 at 11:30:15 BST
>>>> *To: *Buddy Judge <buddy at apple.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Buddy,
>>>>
>>>> I emailed you recently about apparent limiting I was hearing & 
>>>> measuring on my iPhone when Sound Check was enabled, and I think 
>>>> I?ve got to the bottom of it. Apologies if this is something you?re 
>>>> already aware of, but it seems to be related to a setting that I 
>>>> didn?t previously know about:
>>>>
>>>> Sounds & Haptics > Headphone Safety > Reduce Loud Sounds
>>>>
>>>> In a nutshell, disabling this makes Sound Check behave as I would 
>>>> expect, ie. no limiting when enabled. It was enabled by default for 
>>>> me as a European user, and set to ?85 decibels?. It seems that when 
>>>> this setting is enabled, the increase in level due to Sound Check 
>>>> is sufficient to trigger this safety limiting, resulting in 
>>>> aggressive dynamics attenuation. Specifically, the gain was reduced 
>>>> by over 4 dB on the classical piece I first noticed it with, which 
>>>> is highly audible and unfortunate.
>>>>
>>>> I realise that this behaviour isn?t a bug, it?s a feature. With 
>>>> Sound Check enabled, the music is lifted far enough to trigger the 
>>>> safety limiting. For classical you could argue that this is 
>>>> unavoidable, because of the wide dynamic range, but as I mentioned 
>>>> I?ve also heard and measured it when playing back Atmos mixes with 
>>>> Sound Check enabled, which is a much more mainstream use-case, and 
>>>> seems a shame.
>>>>
>>>> Having said all that, the main reason for this message is that in 
>>>> my testing the safety limiting is being triggered independently of 
>>>> the volume control. I?m not in the habit of listening super-loud on 
>>>> my phone, and even when I turn the playback volume way down, far 
>>>> below 85 dB even at the loudest moments, I?m hearing the aggressive 
>>>> volume reductions when Reduce Loud Sounds is enabled. In fact, I 
>>>> can hear it affecting the level simply by changing the threshold in 
>>>> settings, even with the volume only a few steps up from the minimum.
>>>>
>>>> This seems unnecessary, if its intentional. Shouldn?t the safety 
>>>> limiting be dependent on the actual playback level ? Otherwise it 
>>>> will affect the music even when the volume is low, and perhaps more 
>>>> importantly won?t necessarily protect users? hearing when they 
>>>> choose to turn up the volume for loud music.
>>>>
>>>> Two Atmos mixes where the safety limiting kicks in when Sound Check 
>>>> is enabled are ?Chandelier? by Sia and ?Roar? by Katy Perry. The 
>>>> classical piece I?ve been using for testing is here:
>>>>
>>>> https://music.apple.com/gb/album/the-shepherds-carol/695609721?i=695610093
>>>>
>>>> The safety limiting is clearly audible at 1:30 to 1:40
>>>>
>>>> Again apologies if this is all something you?re already aware of!
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Ian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ***
>>>> Ian Shepherd
>>>> Mastering Media Ltd <http://mastering-media.co.uk/>?- Audio 
>>>> Mastering, Blu-ray and DVD?Excellence
>>>> http://twitter.com/ianshepherd
>>>>
>>>> <http://twitter.com/ianshepherd>Mastering Media Ltd,
>>>> Kemp House, 152 City Road, London, EC1V 2NX
>>>> Registered in England and Wales
>>>> Company No. 073500450
>>>>
>>>> Tel. +44(0)1487 842498
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> MLA mailing list
>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>> -- 
>> If you want good sound on your album, come to Bob Katz 407-831-0233 
>> DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO Author: *Mastering Audio* Digital 
>> Domain Website <https://www.digido.com/> No trees were killed in the 
>> sending of this message. However a large number of electrons were 
>> terribly inconvenienced.
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>
-- 

If you want good sound on your album, come to Bob Katz 407-831-0233 
DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO Author: *Mastering Audio* Digital Domain 
Website <https://www.digido.com/> No trees were killed in the sending of 
this message. However a large number of electrons were terribly 
inconvenienced.
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From gatewaybob at mac.com  Wed Mar 30 17:28:26 2022
From: gatewaybob at mac.com (Bob Ludwig)
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 11:28:26 -0400
Subject: [MLA] iPhone limiting issue solved ? (Headphone safety)
In-Reply-To: <4789dc2d-e27a-4358-1ca2-7c69f39857cf@digido.com>
References: <4789dc2d-e27a-4358-1ca2-7c69f39857cf@digido.com>
Message-ID: <9DF303CE-9AB7-4D80-A730-81CCCEC0833D@mac.com>

Hi Ian and Bob 

Thanks for doing this leg work on this.
I really appreciate your reporting on this.

Also, it all makes sense from an engineering perspective.

All my best,
Bob L.










On Mar 30, 2022, at 11:03 AM, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com> wrote:

?
Yes, the setting is there, but not activated by default. I'm glad you made me look!



Of course the "85 dB" is ficticious.... maybe it's tied to the sensitivity of Apple Ear buds. But it could be VERY far off for any other earphone. 



Bob





On 3/30/22 10:32 AM, Ian Shepherd wrote:
> 
> I think the setting will be there but maybe not active by default ?
> 
> 
> 
>> On 30 Mar 2022, at 15:17, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com> wrote:
>> 
>> To complicate matters, European (and UK I think) phones are subject to the Cenelec legislation, which is up for revision. So I'm not sure if this applies to U.S. phones
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 3/30/22 6:31 AM, Ian Shepherd wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi All, 
>>> 
>>> I thought you might be interested to see this.
>>> 
>>> Ian
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>> 
>>>> From: Ian Shepherd <ian at mastering-media.co.uk>
>>>> Subject: iPhone limiting issue solved ? (Headphone safety)
>>>> Date: 30 March 2022 at 11:30:15 BST
>>>> To: Buddy Judge <buddy at apple.com>
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Buddy,
>>>> 
>>>> I emailed you recently about apparent limiting I was hearing & measuring on my iPhone when Sound Check was enabled, and I think I?ve got to the bottom of it. Apologies if this is something you?re already aware of, but it seems to be related to a setting that I didn?t previously know about:
>>>> 
>>>> Sounds & Haptics > Headphone Safety > Reduce Loud Sounds
>>>> 
>>>> In a nutshell, disabling this makes Sound Check behave as I would expect, ie. no limiting when enabled. It was enabled by default for me as a European user, and set to ?85 decibels?. It seems that when this setting is enabled, the increase in level due to Sound Check is sufficient to trigger this safety limiting, resulting in aggressive dynamics attenuation. Specifically, the gain was reduced by over 4 dB on the classical piece I first noticed it with, which is highly audible and unfortunate.
>>>> 
>>>> I realise that this behaviour isn?t a bug, it?s a feature. With Sound Check enabled, the music is lifted far enough to trigger the safety limiting. For classical you could argue that this is unavoidable, because of the wide dynamic range, but as I mentioned I?ve also heard and measured it when playing back Atmos mixes with Sound Check enabled, which is a much more mainstream use-case, and seems a shame.
>>>> 
>>>> Having said all that, the main reason for this message is that in my testing the safety limiting is being triggered independently of the volume control. I?m not in the habit of listening super-loud on my phone, and even when I turn the playback volume way down, far below 85 dB even at the loudest moments, I?m hearing the aggressive volume reductions when Reduce Loud Sounds is enabled. In fact, I can hear it affecting the level simply by changing the threshold in settings, even with the volume only a few steps up from the minimum.
>>>> 
>>>> This seems unnecessary, if its intentional. Shouldn?t the safety limiting be dependent on the actual playback level ? Otherwise it will affect the music even when the volume is low, and perhaps more importantly won?t necessarily protect users? hearing when they choose to turn up the volume for loud music.
>>>> 
>>>> Two Atmos mixes where the safety limiting kicks in when Sound Check is enabled are ?Chandelier? by Sia and ?Roar? by Katy Perry. The classical piece I?ve been using for testing is here:
>>>> 
>>>> https://music.apple.com/gb/album/the-shepherds-carol/695609721?i=695610093
>>>> 
>>>> The safety limiting is clearly audible at 1:30 to 1:40
>>>> 
>>>> Again apologies if this is all something you?re already aware of!
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> 
>>>> Ian
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ***
>>>> Ian Shepherd
>>>> Mastering Media Ltd - Audio Mastering, Blu-ray and DVD Excellence
>>>> http://twitter.com/ianshepherd
>>>> 
>>>> Mastering Media Ltd,
>>>> Kemp House, 152 City Road, London, EC1V 2NX
>>>> Registered in England and Wales 
>>>> Company No. 073500450
>>>> 
>>>> Tel. +44(0)1487 842498
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> MLA mailing list
>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>> -- 
>> 
>> 
>> If you want good sound on your album, come to
>> Bob Katz 407-831-0233 DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
>> Author: Mastering Audio
>> Digital Domain Website
>> 
>> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
>> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
> 
-- 


If you want good sound on your album, come to
Bob Katz 407-831-0233 DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
Author: Mastering Audio
Digital Domain Website

No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
_______________________________________________
MLA mailing list
MLA at grimmaudio.nl
http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
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From eelco at grimmaudio.com  Wed Mar 30 21:43:13 2022
From: eelco at grimmaudio.com (Grimm | Eelco)
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 21:43:13 +0200
Subject: [MLA] iPhone limiting issue solved ? (Headphone safety)
In-Reply-To: <4789dc2d-e27a-4358-1ca2-7c69f39857cf@digido.com>
References: <BC2EC774-E7B3-4EE0-8138-0C11113DB60B@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<722DA312-252C-4E76-938F-B4C2DA657DCF@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<03a6842d-081d-c811-d7f7-76b4ca968c19@digido.com>
	<E7ED7D26-5C8C-496B-9804-EB575CBE800D@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<4789dc2d-e27a-4358-1ca2-7c69f39857cf@digido.com>
Message-ID: <801B824C-292E-4F0F-85CE-D698D643056C@grimmaudio.com>

Hi Bob,

> Of course the "85 dB" is ficticious.... maybe it's tied to the sensitivity of Apple Ear buds. But it could be VERY far off for any other earphone. 

Only softer. The max earbud sensitivity and max output voltage of smartphones etc is regulated by Cenelec and checked before import into the EU is allowed. If both are at maximum, the max SPL with a -10 LUFS test noise is 100 dBA. Above 85 dBA a warning should be given.

In the new Cenelec rules the limit of the volume control may be replaced with a dose meter. I had good hopes that Apple would have implemented that dose meter and added more gain (for -23 LUFS material), but apparently (reading Ian?s report) they added a seriously crappy limiter and turned it on by default - very bad!

Let?s see what Buddy tells us.

Cheers,
Eelco
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