From eelco at grimmaudio.com  Fri Feb  8 15:38:51 2019
From: eelco at grimmaudio.com (Grimm | Eelco)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2019 15:38:51 +0100
Subject: [MLA] Loudness War in New York Times
In-Reply-To: <CALw1_Q0Ne3RyW2_YJY=RLVd+dv61CdqoaDzK95a2U19sk7kYEg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6B53EC47-F16D-4FB3-B502-AB894D6CA471@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<F76AB116-FF43-4A88-B4A3-2CCA0AB01EA9@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q0kwNBkuyH8NQZ+Giib5mFCqTBMk=pe2D92Cts-kSchVg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5b2285b3-794d-025b-1578-f91f55bf2af8@digido.com>
	<A49C70CA-88AF-4176-9090-6D06748E1509@grimmaudio.com>
	<6ea3ebfd-86d6-8119-c917-822469e0f5d1@digido.com>
	<45FEAFFB-A5C3-4A46-9850-1DA3537214A4@lund.one>
	<dc5dd8c2-5f5c-2367-fa5c-922657ea9abd@digido.com>
	<99380BCE-770B-423F-A88B-D7AC041800D5@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<929D80CC-A291-4C14-A7CC-8711E17BC68B@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<FF289A0B-CC2D-4E2A-950B-637B4BF1BF6F@mac.com>
	<74E649D8-0A5B-4936-ACA6-3561E1AF919D@lund.one>
	<AC3AD567-662C-4D8C-B598-324C511772A6@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<fe965af7-4e6c-45be-0ca5-046f49b5f0c4@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q04Drna1o=xDKbKnFp-eHYk5r3Qv7PyLEfWHdxmntfLiw@mail.gmail.com>
	<505ea5c2-8cdc-a244-db29-03dec95c1939@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q3v+uzokStBg3sSjf_MbvUurYc+bKL3B6kJsOtg+dwRsA@mail.gmail.com>
	<de464ee8-3a91-eea2-9ddc-e18b262022e5@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q2cyG_y_uxnkU9n0cF6TX2Aj9e+qbAzMt=S9fRnbFdBew@mail.gmail.com>
	<422959F1-804D-4B2C-92F4-763726FF371D@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q3Neu_kUAv=pRBwty-9sdCAAwDPmjFN1DUZCTxL62YjbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<E9F1517B-EF6D-4B99-8C95-00EEE9BAF4CB@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q0Ne3RyW2_YJY=RLVd+dv61CdqoaDzK95a2U19sk7kYEg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3624B7CE-64E5-4E6A-A103-80490FE2E204@grimmaudio.com>

Now look at this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/07/opinion/what-these-grammy-songs-tell-us-about-the-loudness-wars.html

Cheers,
Eelco

From bobkatz at digido.com  Fri Feb  8 19:20:09 2019
From: bobkatz at digido.com (Bob Katz)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2019 13:20:09 -0500
Subject: [MLA] Loudness War in New York Times
In-Reply-To: <3624B7CE-64E5-4E6A-A103-80490FE2E204@grimmaudio.com>
References: <6B53EC47-F16D-4FB3-B502-AB894D6CA471@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<929D80CC-A291-4C14-A7CC-8711E17BC68B@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<FF289A0B-CC2D-4E2A-950B-637B4BF1BF6F@mac.com>
	<74E649D8-0A5B-4936-ACA6-3561E1AF919D@lund.one>
	<AC3AD567-662C-4D8C-B598-324C511772A6@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<fe965af7-4e6c-45be-0ca5-046f49b5f0c4@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q04Drna1o=xDKbKnFp-eHYk5r3Qv7PyLEfWHdxmntfLiw@mail.gmail.com>
	<505ea5c2-8cdc-a244-db29-03dec95c1939@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q3v+uzokStBg3sSjf_MbvUurYc+bKL3B6kJsOtg+dwRsA@mail.gmail.com>
	<de464ee8-3a91-eea2-9ddc-e18b262022e5@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q2cyG_y_uxnkU9n0cF6TX2Aj9e+qbAzMt=S9fRnbFdBew@mail.gmail.com>
	<422959F1-804D-4B2C-92F4-763726FF371D@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q3Neu_kUAv=pRBwty-9sdCAAwDPmjFN1DUZCTxL62YjbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<E9F1517B-EF6D-4B99-8C95-00EEE9BAF4CB@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q0Ne3RyW2_YJY=RLVd+dv61CdqoaDzK95a2U19sk7kYEg@mail.gmail.com>
	<3624B7CE-64E5-4E6A-A103-80490FE2E204@grimmaudio.com>
Message-ID: <4c89e446-5503-af3d-01d3-bcb46fb7ee18@digido.com>

Yes. Bob Ludwig and I had a lot to do with this article. We both 
consulted with Greg Milner on the data and the presentation.



Bob



On 2/8/19 9:38 AM, Grimm | Eelco wrote:
> Now look at this:
>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/07/opinion/what-these-grammy-songs-tell-us-about-the-loudness-wars.html
>
> Cheers,
> Eelco
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
-- 

If you want good sound on your album, come to Bob Katz 407-831-0233 
DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO Author: *Mastering Audio* Digital Domain 
Website <https://www.digido.com/> No trees were killed in the sending of 
this message. However a large number of electrons were terribly 
inconvenienced.

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From gatewaybob at mac.com  Fri Feb  8 19:29:58 2019
From: gatewaybob at mac.com (Robert Ludwig)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2019 13:29:58 -0500
Subject: [MLA] Loudness War in New York Times
In-Reply-To: <4c89e446-5503-af3d-01d3-bcb46fb7ee18@digido.com>
References: <6B53EC47-F16D-4FB3-B502-AB894D6CA471@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<929D80CC-A291-4C14-A7CC-8711E17BC68B@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<FF289A0B-CC2D-4E2A-950B-637B4BF1BF6F@mac.com>
	<74E649D8-0A5B-4936-ACA6-3561E1AF919D@lund.one>
	<AC3AD567-662C-4D8C-B598-324C511772A6@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<fe965af7-4e6c-45be-0ca5-046f49b5f0c4@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q04Drna1o=xDKbKnFp-eHYk5r3Qv7PyLEfWHdxmntfLiw@mail.gmail.com>
	<505ea5c2-8cdc-a244-db29-03dec95c1939@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q3v+uzokStBg3sSjf_MbvUurYc+bKL3B6kJsOtg+dwRsA@mail.gmail.com>
	<de464ee8-3a91-eea2-9ddc-e18b262022e5@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q2cyG_y_uxnkU9n0cF6TX2Aj9e+qbAzMt=S9fRnbFdBew@mail.gmail.com>
	<422959F1-804D-4B2C-92F4-763726FF371D@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q3Neu_kUAv=pRBwty-9sdCAAwDPmjFN1DUZCTxL62YjbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<E9F1517B-EF6D-4B99-8C95-00EEE9BAF4CB@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q0Ne3RyW2_YJY=RLVd+dv61CdqoaDzK95a2U19sk7kYEg@mail.gmail.com>
	<3624B7CE-64E5-4E6A-A103-80490FE2E204@grimmaudio.com>
	<4c89e446-5503-af3d-01d3-bcb46fb7ee18 @digido.com>
Message-ID: <F7883F7B-4649-4AF2-B6A2-BAF33FF0E8FE@mac.com>

Thank you Mr. Katz, 
but you added far more to the context of the article by your very perceptive critique of Chinoy?s graphics
(The editor from the Times (Sahil Chinoy) made his own software program for measuring these things, why bother with the BS-1770 specification?)
I guess it makes the point well enough. 

Best,
Bob L.




> On Feb 8, 2019, at 1:20 PM, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com> wrote
> 
> Yes. Bob Ludwig and I had a lot to do with this article. We both consulted with Greg Milner on the data and the presentation.
> 
> Bob
> 
> On 2/8/19 9:38 AM, Grimm | Eelco wrote:
> 
>> Now look at this:
>> 
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/07/opinion/what-these-grammy-songs-tell-us-about-the-loudness-wars.html <https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/07/opinion/what-these-grammy-songs-tell-us-about-the-loudness-wars.html>
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Eelco
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl <http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl>
> -- 
> 
> 
> If you want good sound on your album, come to
> Bob Katz 407-831-0233 DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
> Author: Mastering Audio
> Digital Domain Website <https://www.digido.com/>
> 
> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl

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From bobkatz at digido.com  Fri Feb  8 19:46:54 2019
From: bobkatz at digido.com (Bob Katz)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2019 13:46:54 -0500
Subject: [MLA] Loudness War in New York Times
In-Reply-To: <F7883F7B-4649-4AF2-B6A2-BAF33FF0E8FE@mac.com>
References: <6B53EC47-F16D-4FB3-B502-AB894D6CA471@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<FF289A0B-CC2D-4E2A-950B-637B4BF1BF6F@mac.com>
	<74E649D8-0A5B-4936-ACA6-3561E1AF919D@lund.one>
	<AC3AD567-662C-4D8C-B598-324C511772A6@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<fe965af7-4e6c-45be-0ca5-046f49b5f0c4@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q04Drna1o=xDKbKnFp-eHYk5r3Qv7PyLEfWHdxmntfLiw@mail.gmail.com>
	<505ea5c2-8cdc-a244-db29-03dec95c1939@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q3v+uzokStBg3sSjf_MbvUurYc+bKL3B6kJsOtg+dwRsA@mail.gmail.com>
	<de464ee8-3a91-eea2-9ddc-e18b262022e5@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q2cyG_y_uxnkU9n0cF6TX2Aj9e+qbAzMt=S9fRnbFdBew@mail.gmail.com>
	<422959F1-804D-4B2C-92F4-763726FF371D@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q3Neu_kUAv=pRBwty-9sdCAAwDPmjFN1DUZCTxL62YjbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<E9F1517B-EF6D-4B99-8C95-00EEE9BAF4CB@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q0Ne3RyW2_YJY=RLVd+dv61CdqoaDzK95a2U19sk7kYEg@mail.gmail.com>
	<3624B7CE-64E5-4E6A-A103-80490FE2E204@grimmaudio.com>
	<4c89e446-5503-af3d-01d3-bcb46fb7ee18 @digido.com>
	<F7883F7B-4649-4AF2-B6A2-BAF33FF0E8FE@mac.com>
Message-ID: <5a121d6e-deda-b415-a133-2e8ff402afce@digido.com>

Unfortunately, I gave in when I saw the 30 second version of Chinoy's 
graphics. I told him there just wasn't enough information in there. That 
the sonic differences between at least two different examples that they 
published, were not reflected in the red dots of the peak level. I said 
for a consumer article it was "good enough", but I would not let those 
graphics go in a professional context.


Bob K.


On 2/8/19 1:29 PM, Robert Ludwig wrote:
> Thank you Mr. Katz,
> but _you_ added far more to the context of the article by your very 
> perceptive critique of Chinoy?s graphics
> (The editor from the Times (Sahil Chinoy) made his own software 
> program for measuring these things, why bother with the BS-1770 
> specification?)
> I guess it makes the point well enough.
>
> Best,
> Bob L.
>
>
>
>
>> On Feb 8, 2019, at 1:20 PM, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com 
>> <mailto:bobkatz at digido.com>> wrote
>>
>> Yes. Bob Ludwig and I had a lot to do with this article. We both 
>> consulted with Greg Milner on the data and the presentation.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> On 2/8/19 9:38 AM, Grimm | Eelco wrote:
>>
>>> Now look at this:
>>>
>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/07/opinion/what-these-grammy-songs-tell-us-about-the-loudness-wars.html
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Eelco
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> MLA mailing list
>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>> -- 
>> If you want good sound on your album, come to Bob Katz 407-831-0233 
>> DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO Author: *Mastering Audio* Digital 
>> Domain Website <https://www.digido.com/> No trees were killed in the 
>> sending of this message. However a large number of electrons were 
>> terribly inconvenienced.
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
-- 

If you want good sound on your album, come to Bob Katz 407-831-0233 
DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO Author: *Mastering Audio* Digital Domain 
Website <https://www.digido.com/> No trees were killed in the sending of 
this message. However a large number of electrons were terribly 
inconvenienced.

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From ian at mastering-media.co.uk  Fri Feb  8 20:04:53 2019
From: ian at mastering-media.co.uk (Ian Shepherd)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2019 19:04:53 +0000
Subject: [MLA] Loudness War in New York Times
In-Reply-To: <5a121d6e-deda-b415-a133-2e8ff402afce@digido.com>
References: <6B53EC47-F16D-4FB3-B502-AB894D6CA471@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<FF289A0B-CC2D-4E2A-950B-637B4BF1BF6F@mac.com>
	<74E649D8-0A5B-4936-ACA6-3561E1AF919D@lund.one>
	<AC3AD567-662C-4D8C-B598-324C511772A6@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<fe965af7-4e6c-45be-0ca5-046f49b5f0c4@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q04Drna1o=xDKbKnFp-eHYk5r3Qv7PyLEfWHdxmntfLiw@mail.gmail.com>
	<505ea5c2-8cdc-a244-db29-03dec95c1939@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q3v+uzokStBg3sSjf_MbvUurYc+bKL3B6kJsOtg+dwRsA@mail.gmail.com>
	<de464ee8-3a91-eea2-9ddc-e18b262022e5@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q2cyG_y_uxnkU9n0cF6TX2Aj9e+qbAzMt=S9fRnbFdBew@mail.gmail.com>
	<422959F1-804D-4B2C-92F4-763726FF371D@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q3Neu_kUAv=pRBwty-9sdCAAwDPmjFN1DUZCTxL62YjbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<E9F1517B-EF6D-4B99-8C95-00EEE9BAF4CB@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q0Ne3RyW2_YJY=RLVd+dv61CdqoaDzK95a2U19sk7kYEg@mail.gmail.com>
	<3624B7CE-64E5-4E6A-A103-80490FE2E204@grimmaudio.com>
	<4c89e446-5503-af3d-01d3-bcb46fb7ee18
	@digido.com> <F7883F7B-4649-4AF2-B6A2-BAF33FF0E8FE@mac.com>
	<5a121d6e-deda-b415-a133-2e8ff402afce@digido.com>
Message-ID: <A10ADD49-212A-4AC4-B2DD-9A0C3F455AF0@mastering-media.co.uk>


I saw it - overall I thought it was a very clear explanation for a non-technical audience, although I agree it?s a shame he didn?t use LUFS graphs !

Meanwhile I?m under sustained criticism in the ?Mastering Engineers Worldwide? Facebook group from engineers who think I shouldn?t be ?preaching? that loudness is bad, and shouldn?t have used the word ?penalty? in the name for our site, and that I?m spreading bad information to the world?

[Sigh]

On a more positive note, please let me know of any releases you guys have done or know about that have decent dynamics - I need some good examples for the Dynamic Range Day Award next month?!

Ian





> On 8 Feb 2019, at 18:46, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com> wrote:
> 
> Unfortunately, I gave in when I saw the 30 second version of Chinoy's graphics. I told him there just wasn't enough information in there. That the sonic differences between at least two different examples that they published, were not reflected in the red dots of the peak level. I said for a consumer article it was "good enough", but I would not let those graphics go in a professional context. 
> 
> Bob K. 
> 
> On 2/8/19 1:29 PM, Robert Ludwig wrote:
>> Thank you Mr. Katz, 
>> but you added far more to the context of the article by your very perceptive critique of Chinoy?s graphics
>> (The editor from the Times (Sahil Chinoy) made his own software program for measuring these things, why bother with the BS-1770 specification?)
>> I guess it makes the point well enough. 
>> 
>> Best,
>> Bob L.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Feb 8, 2019, at 1:20 PM, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com <mailto:bobkatz at digido.com>> wrote
>>> 
>>> Yes. Bob Ludwig and I had a lot to do with this article. We both consulted with Greg Milner on the data and the presentation.
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> 
>>> On 2/8/19 9:38 AM, Grimm | Eelco wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Now look at this:
>>>> 
>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/07/opinion/what-these-grammy-songs-tell-us-about-the-loudness-wars.html <https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/07/opinion/what-these-grammy-songs-tell-us-about-the-loudness-wars.html>
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Eelco
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl <http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl>
>>> -- 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> If you want good sound on your album, come to
>>> Bob Katz 407-831-0233 DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
>>> Author: Mastering Audio
>>> Digital Domain Website <https://www.digido.com/>
>>> 
>>> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
>>> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> MLA mailing list
>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl <http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl <http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl>
> -- 
> 
> 
> If you want good sound on your album, come to
> Bob Katz 407-831-0233 DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
> Author: Mastering Audio
> Digital Domain Website <https://www.digido.com/>
> 
> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl

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From eelco at grimmaudio.com  Fri Feb  8 23:44:10 2019
From: eelco at grimmaudio.com (Grimm | Eelco)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2019 23:44:10 +0100
Subject: [MLA] Loudness War in New York Times
In-Reply-To: <A10ADD49-212A-4AC4-B2DD-9A0C3F455AF0@mastering-media.co.uk>
References: <6B53EC47-F16D-4FB3-B502-AB894D6CA471@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<FF289A0B-CC2D-4E2A-950B-637B4BF1BF6F@mac.com>
	<74E649D8-0A5B-4936-ACA6-3561E1AF919D@lund.one>
	<AC3AD567-662C-4D8C-B598-324C511772A6@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<fe965af7-4e6c-45be-0ca5-046f49b5f0c4@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q04Drna1o=xDKbKnFp-eHYk5r3Qv7PyLEfWHdxmntfLiw@mail.gmail.com>
	<505ea5c2-8cdc-a244-db29-03dec95c1939@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q3v+uzokStBg3sSjf_MbvUurYc+bKL3B6kJsOtg+dwRsA@mail.gmail.com>
	<de464ee8-3a91-eea2-9ddc-e18b262022e5@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q2cyG_y_uxnkU9n0cF6TX2Aj9e+qbAzMt=S9fRnbFdBew@mail.gmail.com>
	<422959F1-804D-4B2C-92F4-763726FF371D@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q3Neu_kUAv=pRBwty-9sdCAAwDPmjFN1DUZCTxL62YjbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<E9F1517B-EF6D-4B99-8C95-00EEE9BAF4CB@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q0Ne3RyW2_YJY=RLVd+dv61CdqoaDzK95a2U19sk7kYEg@mail.gmail.com>
	<3624B7CE-64E5-4E6A-A103-80490FE2E204@grimmaudio.com>
	<4c89e446-5503-af3d-01d3-bcb46fb7ee18 @digido.com>
	<F7883F7B-4649-4AF2-B6A2-BAF33FF0E8FE@mac.com>
	<5a121d6e-deda-b415-a133-2e8ff402afce@digido.com>
	<A10ADD49-212A-4AC4-B2DD-9A0C3F455AF0@mastering-media.co.uk>
Message-ID: <A15ADCE1-43A8-413B-9744-DC9FECABBBBE@grimmaudio.com>

Hi Ian,

> I saw it - overall I thought it was a very clear explanation for a non-technical audience, although I agree it?s a shame he didn?t use LUFS graphs !
> 
> Meanwhile I?m under sustained criticism in the ?Mastering Engineers Worldwide? Facebook group from engineers who think I shouldn?t be ?preaching? that loudness is bad, and shouldn?t have used the word ?penalty? in the name for our site, and that I?m spreading bad information to the world?
> 
> [Sigh]

My goal has always been that there is no penalty for people who master dynamic, and that is what normalization brings. Anyone who prefers to keep squashing his masters is welcome to do so. For me personally, I just will not listen to his work since there is too little time in my life to waste it on ugly stuff. But everyone is welcome to make whatever he/she likes of course! That is the main message for me: loudness normalization offers an equal stage for everyone. With peak normalization there is a penalty for dynamic masters. I am not against squashing, I am just in favor of making things dynamic and I want to be heard.

> On a more positive note, please let me know of any releases you guys have done or know about that have decent dynamics - I need some good examples for the Dynamic Range Day Award next month?!

For a couple of years now this album is one of my favorites: https://www.younsunnah.com/discography/same-girl/ (88.2/24 available at HD tracks).
But it is already from 2010.

Cheers,
Eelco

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From eelco at grimmaudio.com  Fri Feb  8 23:59:25 2019
From: eelco at grimmaudio.com (Grimm | Eelco)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2019 23:59:25 +0100
Subject: [MLA] Loudness War in New York Times
In-Reply-To: <5a121d6e-deda-b415-a133-2e8ff402afce@digido.com>
References: <6B53EC47-F16D-4FB3-B502-AB894D6CA471@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<FF289A0B-CC2D-4E2A-950B-637B4BF1BF6F@mac.com>
	<74E649D8-0A5B-4936-ACA6-3561E1AF919D@lund.one>
	<AC3AD567-662C-4D8C-B598-324C511772A6@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<fe965af7-4e6c-45be-0ca5-046f49b5f0c4@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q04Drna1o=xDKbKnFp-eHYk5r3Qv7PyLEfWHdxmntfLiw@mail.gmail.com>
	<505ea5c2-8cdc-a244-db29-03dec95c1939@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q3v+uzokStBg3sSjf_MbvUurYc+bKL3B6kJsOtg+dwRsA@mail.gmail.com>
	<de464ee8-3a91-eea2-9ddc-e18b262022e5@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q2cyG_y_uxnkU9n0cF6TX2Aj9e+qbAzMt=S9fRnbFdBew@mail.gmail.com>
	<422959F1-804D-4B2C-92F4-763726FF371D@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q3Neu_kUAv=pRBwty-9sdCAAwDPmjFN1DUZCTxL62YjbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<E9F1517B-EF6D-4B99-8C95-00EEE9BAF4CB@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q0Ne3RyW2_YJY=RLVd+dv61CdqoaDzK95a2U19sk7kYEg@mail.gmail.com>
	<3624B7CE-64E5-4E6A-A103-80490FE2E204@grimmaudio.com>
	<4c89e446-5503-af3d-01d3-bcb46fb7ee18 @digido.com>
	<F7883F7B-4649-4AF2-B6A2-BAF33FF0E8FE@mac.com>
	<5a121d6e-deda-b415-a133-2e8ff402afce@digido.com>
Message-ID: <423174EC-FB0F-4194-9088-9C66299B171D@grimmaudio.com>

Hi Bob and Bob,

Good that you were able to comment on the article before publication!

> Unfortunately, I gave in when I saw the 30 second version of Chinoy's graphics. I told him there just wasn't enough information in there. That the sonic differences between at least two different examples that they published, were not reflected in the red dots of the peak level. I said for a consumer article it was "good enough", but I would not let those graphics go in a professional context. 

Yeah, that?s a shame. But still I am glad for attention to the loudness war in one of the world?s best read news papers...

Cheers,
Eelco
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From kevin.gross at avanw.com  Sat Feb  9 16:25:10 2019
From: kevin.gross at avanw.com (Kevin Gross)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2019 08:25:10 -0700
Subject: [MLA] Loudness War in New York Times
In-Reply-To: <423174EC-FB0F-4194-9088-9C66299B171D@grimmaudio.com>
References: <6B53EC47-F16D-4FB3-B502-AB894D6CA471@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<FF289A0B-CC2D-4E2A-950B-637B4BF1BF6F@mac.com>
	<74E649D8-0A5B-4936-ACA6-3561E1AF919D@lund.one>
	<AC3AD567-662C-4D8C-B598-324C511772A6@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<fe965af7-4e6c-45be-0ca5-046f49b5f0c4@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q04Drna1o=xDKbKnFp-eHYk5r3Qv7PyLEfWHdxmntfLiw@mail.gmail.com>
	<505ea5c2-8cdc-a244-db29-03dec95c1939@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q3v+uzokStBg3sSjf_MbvUurYc+bKL3B6kJsOtg+dwRsA@mail.gmail.com>
	<de464ee8-3a91-eea2-9ddc-e18b262022e5@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q2cyG_y_uxnkU9n0cF6TX2Aj9e+qbAzMt=S9fRnbFdBew@mail.gmail.com>
	<422959F1-804D-4B2C-92F4-763726FF371D@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q3Neu_kUAv=pRBwty-9sdCAAwDPmjFN1DUZCTxL62YjbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<E9F1517B-EF6D-4B99-8C95-00EEE9BAF4CB@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q0Ne3RyW2_YJY=RLVd+dv61CdqoaDzK95a2U19sk7kYEg@mail.gmail.com>
	<3624B7CE-64E5-4E6A-A103-80490FE2E204@grimmaudio.com>
	<F7883F7B-4649-4AF2-B6A2-BAF33FF0E8FE@mac.com>
	<5a121d6e-deda-b415-a133-2e8ff402afce@digido.com>
	<423174EC-FB0F-4194-9088-9C66299B171D@grimmaudio.com>
Message-ID: <CALw1_Q0z=X+V=JbfU=Rj394kgwwGSeTfdck9VYtFMu=WO4ymog@mail.gmail.com>

I was surprised to learn from Bob Ludwig's quotes that loudness
normalization has not been successful at stemming the loudness war. Are
others here in agreement with this assessment?

Kevin Gross - AVA Networks


On Fri, Feb 8, 2019 at 4:00 PM Grimm | Eelco <eelco at grimmaudio.com> wrote:

> Hi Bob and Bob,
>
> Good that you were able to comment on the article before publication!
>
> Unfortunately, I gave in when I saw the 30 second version of Chinoy's
> graphics. I told him there just wasn't enough information in there. That
> the sonic differences between at least two different examples that they
> published, were not reflected in the red dots of the peak level. I said for
> a consumer article it was "good enough", but I would not let those graphics
> go in a professional context.
>
>
> Yeah, that?s a shame. But still I am glad for attention to the loudness
> war in one of the world?s best read news papers...
>
> Cheers,
> Eelco
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>
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From eelco at grimmaudio.com  Sat Feb  9 17:41:24 2019
From: eelco at grimmaudio.com (Grimm | Eelco)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2019 17:41:24 +0100
Subject: [MLA] Loudness War in New York Times
In-Reply-To: <CALw1_Q0z=X+V=JbfU=Rj394kgwwGSeTfdck9VYtFMu=WO4ymog@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6B53EC47-F16D-4FB3-B502-AB894D6CA471@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<FF289A0B-CC2D-4E2A-950B-637B4BF1BF6F@mac.com>
	<74E649D8-0A5B-4936-ACA6-3561E1AF919D@lund.one>
	<AC3AD567-662C-4D8C-B598-324C511772A6@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<fe965af7-4e6c-45be-0ca5-046f49b5f0c4@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q04Drna1o=xDKbKnFp-eHYk5r3Qv7PyLEfWHdxmntfLiw@mail.gmail.com>
	<505ea5c2-8cdc-a244-db29-03dec95c1939@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q3v+uzokStBg3sSjf_MbvUurYc+bKL3B6kJsOtg+dwRsA@mail.gmail.com>
	<de464ee8-3a91-eea2-9ddc-e18b262022e5@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q2cyG_y_uxnkU9n0cF6TX2Aj9e+qbAzMt=S9fRnbFdBew@mail.gmail.com>
	<422959F1-804D-4B2C-92F4-763726FF371D@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q3Neu_kUAv=pRBwty-9sdCAAwDPmjFN1DUZCTxL62YjbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<E9F1517B-EF6D-4B99-8C95-00EEE9BAF4CB@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q0Ne3RyW2_YJY=RLVd+dv61CdqoaDzK95a2U19sk7kYEg@mail.gmail.com>
	<3624B7CE-64E5-4E6A-A103-80490FE2E204@grimmaudio.com>
	<F7883F7B-4649-4AF2-B6A2-BAF33FF0E8FE@mac.com>
	<5a121d6e-deda-b415-a133-2e8ff402afce@digido.com>
	<423174EC-FB0F-4194-9088-9C66299B171D@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q0z=X+V=JbfU=Rj394kgwwGSeTfdck9VYtFMu=WO4ymog@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <829C6F67-1BDF-44FF-BF51-AE35A1B3E755@grimmaudio.com>

Hi Kevin,

> I was surprised to learn from Bob Ludwig's quotes that loudness normalization has not been successful at stemming the loudness war. Are others here in agreement with this assessment?

The loudness war is caused by fear. Fear is always larger when larger amounts of money and/or ego are involved. I can imagine that the type of customers that Bob Ludwig has live very much in fear. 

I know the Indie scene in The Netherlands a bit. Since a couple of years the better engineers are all aware of the normalization by Spotify and now work to -14 LUFS, -12 LUFS max whenever they can. This was not the case before Spotify used normalization. At the time -8 LUFS was the standard and it was very hard to convince clients to go lower.

Normalization does work. But you should not think it will convince everyone. There?s also still squashed commercials made in Europe, although the more dynamic ones sound louder with R128. 

Cheers,
Eelco

From gatewaybob at mac.com  Sat Feb  9 18:39:46 2019
From: gatewaybob at mac.com (Robert Ludwig)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2019 12:39:46 -0500
Subject: [MLA] Loudness War in New York Times
In-Reply-To: <CALw1_Q0z=X+V=JbfU=Rj394kgwwGSeTfdck9VYtFMu=WO4ymog@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6B53EC47-F16D-4FB3-B502-AB894D6CA471@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<FF289A0B-CC2D-4E2A-950B-637B4BF1BF6F@mac.com>
	<74E649D8-0A5B-4936-ACA6-3561E1AF919D@lund.one>
	<AC3AD567-662C-4D8C-B598-324C511772A6@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<fe965af7-4e6c-45be-0ca5-046f49b5f0c4@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q04Drna1o=xDKbKnFp-eHYk5r3Qv7PyLEfWHdxmntfLiw@mail.gmail.com>
	<505ea5c2-8cdc-a244-db29-03dec95c1939@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q3v+uzokStBg3sSjf_MbvUurYc+bKL3B6kJsOtg+dwRsA@mail.gmail.com>
	<de464ee8-3a91-eea2-9ddc-e18b262022e5@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q2cyG_y_uxnkU9n0cF6TX2Aj9e+qbAzMt=S9fRnbFdBew@mail.gmail.com>
	<422959F1-804D-4B2C-92F4-763726FF371D@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q3Neu_kUAv=pRBwty-9sdCAAwDPmjFN1DUZCTxL62YjbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<E9F1517B-EF6D-4B99-8C95-00EEE9BAF4CB@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q0Ne3RyW2_YJY=RLVd+dv61CdqoaDzK95a2U19sk7kYEg@mail.gmail.com>
	<3624B7CE-64E5-4E6A-A103-80490FE2E204@grimmaudio.com>
	<F7883F7B-4649-4AF2-B6A2-BAF33FF0E8FE@mac.com>
	<5a121d6e-deda-b415-a133-2e8ff402afce@digido.com> <
	423174EC-FB0F-4194-9088-9C66299B171D@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q0z=X+V=JbfU=Rj394kgwwGSeTfdck9VYtFMu=WO4ymog@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A595C8F4-BFCA-4310-B3F8-8496ECA08C79@mac.com>

Hi Kevin,
While there are exceptions, like the new Mark Knopfler album, some albums I work on are mixed louder than I have ever encountered, and louder than I would have ever considered to be a good final result. 

So it isn?t the mastering engineers always at fault, it is many of the very highest paid mixers like Manny Marroquin, Shawn Everett, Tom Elmhurst etc. who think their work should be amazingly loud.

They do their own pre-mastering to their flat mixes and send those highly compressed mixes to the client for their listening references.  Their clients don?t even get to HEAR the raw mixes which are typically 5-10 dB less compressed than the listening references. 

If you are used to looking at VU meters:  Our mastering rooms are calibrated so 1kHz @ -14dBFS = 0 VU on our consoles.  I remember when DATs were first being used in 1987 and mixes to DAT used to peak around +2 to +4 VU.  Today I routinely get in listening mixes from the mix engineers that peak at +10 or even +12VU! I mean +14VU is all that is possible!  Distorted? Yes indeed!!  I guess it is part of the ethos of it now.  

The A&R people, the artists and certainly the mixers expect me to at LEAST match their listening reference level, a level I would normally never dream of going that high..

I try to do what I can.  I tell clients about Spotify loudness normalization and how they can get a feel for that by comparing flat mixes vs. compressed mixes with Sound Check turned on in iTunes. When we start a project there is often a key song that they want mastered before the album comes out and I will send them both dynamic and hot versions and 90% of the time they pick the hot one. 

For me, 2 of my ?Best Engineered? Grammy Awards are for records that are mixed and thus mastered way too hot: the Beck ?Morning Phase? and the Alabama Shakes album that is just crazy loud.  Those nominations are chosen by craft committees the Recording Academy puts together of the best mixers and well regarded mastering engineers.  I don?t understand it!

Years ago when the mixers started doing this I would only be supplied with their low level original mixes (the ones the A&R people and the artist have never heard!).  I would master the album to sound as good as possible and everyone would report back how small and wimpy it sounded? and how could someone like me even submit something so bad?   We discovered this insane absurdity of them not supplying the mastering engineer with the very mixes everyone but us were listening to and USED TO! Once I heard what they were hearing everything was fine.   So in short order our front office now asks specifically to be supplied with the non-smashed mixes as well as the files everyone else has been hearing.  It has been one of the most unexpected and disappointing situations. 

All my best,
Bob Ludwig


> On Feb 9, 2019, at 10:25 AM, Kevin Gross <kevin.gross at avanw.com> wrote:
> 
> I was surprised to learn from Bob Ludwig's quotes that loudness normalization has not been successful at stemming the loudness war. Are others here in agreement with this assessment?
> 
> Kevin Gross - AVA Networks

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From robinreumers at gmail.com  Sat Feb  9 19:30:33 2019
From: robinreumers at gmail.com (Robin Reumers)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2019 10:30:33 -0800
Subject: [MLA] Loudness War in New York Times
In-Reply-To: <A595C8F4-BFCA-4310-B3F8-8496ECA08C79@mac.com>
References: <6B53EC47-F16D-4FB3-B502-AB894D6CA471@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<FF289A0B-CC2D-4E2A-950B-637B4BF1BF6F@mac.com>
	<74E649D8-0A5B-4936-ACA6-3561E1AF919D@lund.one>
	<AC3AD567-662C-4D8C-B598-324C511772A6@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<fe965af7-4e6c-45be-0ca5-046f49b5f0c4@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q04Drna1o=xDKbKnFp-eHYk5r3Qv7PyLEfWHdxmntfLiw@mail.gmail.com>
	<505ea5c2-8cdc-a244-db29-03dec95c1939@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q3v+uzokStBg3sSjf_MbvUurYc+bKL3B6kJsOtg+dwRsA@mail.gmail.com>
	<de464ee8-3a91-eea2-9ddc-e18b262022e5@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q2cyG_y_uxnkU9n0cF6TX2Aj9e+qbAzMt=S9fRnbFdBew@mail.gmail.com>
	<422959F1-804D-4B2C-92F4-763726FF371D@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q3Neu_kUAv=pRBwty-9sdCAAwDPmjFN1DUZCTxL62YjbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<E9F1517B-EF6D-4B99-8C95-00EEE9BAF4CB@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q0Ne3RyW2_YJY=RLVd+dv61CdqoaDzK95a2U19sk7kYEg@mail.gmail.com>
	<3624B7CE-64E5-4E6A-A103-80490FE2E204@grimmaudio.com>
	<F7883F7B-4649-4AF2-B6A2-BAF33FF0E8FE@mac.com>
	<5a121d6e-deda-b415-a133-2e8ff402afce@digido.com> <
	423174EC-FB0F-4194-9088-9C66299B171D@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q0z=X+V=JbfU=Rj394kgwwGSeTfdck9VYtFMu=WO4ymog@mail.gmail.com>
	<A595C8F4-BFCA-4310-B3F8-8496ECA08C79@mac.com>
Message-ID: <76E09C73-59A1-4C78-897B-AB275C91FF07@gmail.com>

Hi all,

I know I totally have no right to comment on this within the group, but I would love to share my personal experience with this. Last year, I got to do a spec mix for a well known Spanish artist. It got 5 Latin Grammy nominations and 1 Grammy nomination. 3 mixers were asked to mix 2 of the singles on the album and then the artist / A&R / producer picked a winner. I ended up not making it, but then I heard the mix that won and I really wanted to understand what they could have liked better about it.

One thing is that his mix that he sent to the client was about 6dBs louder (mine was around -13 LUFS). Mine already had some bus processing on it, to make it compete, but I didn?t want to deliver something at say -7 LUFS. Then I heard that the way these mixes were being listened to was a simple MP3 of each, sent via email. So the way the artist / A&R compares these spec mixes, is typically not loudness normalised. Which means as a mixer, if you want to be safe that your mix gets chosen, it makes ?sense" to make it louder.

I know for example with the last John Mayer album, it was also spec mixed by multiple mixing engineers. So is it possible that those highly paid mixers chose to make it really loud, because it?s the safest bet? Spec mixes seem to be very common nowadays.

Just wanted to share my 2 cents.

Best wishes,

Robin

> On 9 Feb 2019, at 09:39, Robert Ludwig <gatewaybob at mac.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Kevin,
> While there are exceptions, like the new Mark Knopfler album, some albums I work on are mixed louder than I have ever encountered, and louder than I would have ever considered to be a good final result.  
> 
> So it isn?t the mastering engineers always at fault, it is many of the very highest paid mixers like Manny Marroquin, Shawn Everett, Tom Elmhurst etc. who think their work should be amazingly loud.
> 
> They do their own pre-mastering to their flat mixes and send those highly compressed mixes to the client for their listening references.  Their clients don?t even get to HEAR the raw mixes which are typically 5-10 dB less compressed than the listening references. 
> 
> If you are used to looking at VU meters:  Our mastering rooms are calibrated so 1kHz @ -14dBFS = 0 VU on our consoles.  I remember when DATs were first being used in 1987 and mixes to DAT used to peak around +2 to +4 VU.  Today I routinely get in listening mixes from the mix engineers that peak at +10 or even +12VU! I mean +14VU is all that is possible!  Distorted? Yes indeed!!  I guess it is part of the ethos of it now.  
> 
> The A&R people, the artists and certainly the mixers expect me to at LEAST match their listening reference level, a level I would normally never dream of going that high..
> 
> I try to do what I can.  I tell clients about Spotify loudness normalization and how they can get a feel for that by comparing flat mixes vs. compressed mixes with Sound Check turned on in iTunes. When we start a project there is often a key song that they want mastered before the album comes out and I will send them both dynamic and hot versions and 90% of the time they pick the hot one. 
> 
> For me, 2 of my ?Best Engineered? Grammy Awards are for records that are mixed and thus mastered way too hot: the Beck ?Morning Phase? and the Alabama Shakes album that is just crazy loud.  Those nominations are chosen by craft committees the Recording Academy puts together of the best mixers and well regarded mastering engineers.  I don?t understand it!
> 
> Years ago when the mixers started doing this I would only be supplied with their low level original mixes (the ones the A&R people and the artist have never heard!).  I would master the album to sound as good as possible and everyone would report back how small and wimpy it sounded? and how could someone like me even submit something so bad?   We discovered this insane absurdity of them not supplying the mastering engineer with the very mixes everyone but us were listening to and USED TO! Once I heard what they were hearing everything was fine.   So in short order our front office now asks specifically to be supplied with the non-smashed mixes as well as the files everyone else has been hearing.  It has been one of the most unexpected and disappointing situations. 
> 
> All my best,
> Bob Ludwig
> 
> 
>> On Feb 9, 2019, at 10:25 AM, Kevin Gross <kevin.gross at avanw.com <mailto:kevin.gross at avanw.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> I was surprised to learn from Bob Ludwig's quotes that loudness normalization has not been successful at stemming the loudness war. Are others here in agreement with this assessment?
>> 
>> Kevin Gross - AVA Networks
> 
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl

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From gatewaybob at mac.com  Sat Feb  9 22:24:58 2019
From: gatewaybob at mac.com (Robert Ludwig)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2019 16:24:58 -0500
Subject: [MLA] Loudness War in New York Times
In-Reply-To: <76E09C73-59A1-4C78-897B-AB275C91FF07@gmail.com>
References: <6B53EC47-F16D-4FB3-B502-AB894D6CA471@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<FF289A0B-CC2D-4E2A-950B-637B4BF1BF6F@mac.com>
	<74E649D8-0A5B-4936-ACA6-3561E1AF919D@lund.one>
	<AC3AD567-662C-4D8C-B598-324C511772A6@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<fe965af7-4e6c-45be-0ca5-046f49b5f0c4@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q04Drna1o=xDKbKnFp-eHYk5r3Qv7PyLEfWHdxmntfLiw@mail.gmail.com>
	<505ea5c2-8cdc-a244-db29-03dec95c1939@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q3v+uzokStBg3sSjf_MbvUurYc+bKL3B6kJsOtg+dwRsA@mail.gmail.com>
	<de464ee8-3a91-eea2-9ddc-e18b262022e5@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q2cyG_y_uxnkU9n0cF6TX2Aj9e+qbAzMt=S9fRnbFdBew@mail.gmail.com>
	<422959F1-804D-4B2C-92F4-763726FF371D@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q3Neu_kUAv=pRBwty-9sdCAAwDPmjFN1DUZCTxL62YjbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<E9F1517B-EF6D-4B99-8C95-00EEE9BAF4CB@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q0Ne3RyW2_YJY=RLVd+dv61CdqoaDzK95a2U19sk7kYEg@mail.gmail.com>
	<3624B7CE-64E5-4E6A-A103-80490FE2E204@grimmaudio.com>
	<F7883F7B-4649-4AF2-B6A2-BAF33FF0E8FE@mac.com>
	<5a121d6e-deda-b415-a133-2e8ff402afce@digido.com> <
	423174EC-FB0F-4194-9088-9C66299B171D@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q0z=X+V=JbfU=Rj394kgwwGSeTfdck9VYtFMu=WO4ymog@mail.gmail.com>
	<A595C8F4-BFCA-4310-B3F8-8496ECA08C79@mac.com>
	<76E09C73-59A1-4C78-897B-AB275C91FF07@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EC53E049-7ED7-4418-A165-654439D901DD@mac.com>

Hi Robin,

Exactly right on.  It?s tough out there.  Producers keep leaving the industry because it is harder to make royalties now.
The fact that record companies can get free-on speculation mixes from even the high priced mixers is a shame.  

Best,
Bob L.


> On Feb 9, 2019, at 1:30 PM, Robin Reumers <robinreumers at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I know I totally have no right to comment on this within the group, but I would love to share my personal experience with this. Last year, I got to do a spec mix for a well known Spanish artist. It got 5 Latin Grammy nominations and 1 Grammy nomination. 3 mixers were asked to mix 2 of the singles on the album and then the artist / A&R / producer picked a winner. I ended up not making it, but then I heard the mix that won and I really wanted to understand what they could have liked better about it.
> 
> One thing is that his mix that he sent to the client was about 6dBs louder (mine was around -13 LUFS). Mine already had some bus processing on it, to make it compete, but I didn?t want to deliver something at say -7 LUFS. Then I heard that the way these mixes were being listened to was a simple MP3 of each, sent via email. So the way the artist / A&R compares these spec mixes, is typically not loudness normalised. Which means as a mixer, if you want to be safe that your mix gets chosen, it makes ?sense" to make it louder.
> 
> I know for example with the last John Mayer album, it was also spec mixed by multiple mixing engineers. So is it possible that those highly paid mixers chose to make it really loud, because it?s the safest bet? Spec mixes seem to be very common nowadays.
> 
> Just wanted to share my 2 cents.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Robin
> 
>> On 9 Feb 2019, at 09:39, Robert Ludwig <gatewaybob at mac.com <mailto:gatewaybob at mac.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Kevin,
>> While there are exceptions, like the new Mark Knopfler album, some albums I work on are mixed louder than I have ever encountered, and louder than I would have ever considered to be a good final result.  
>> 
>> So it isn?t the mastering engineers always at fault, it is many of the very highest paid mixers like Manny Marroquin, Shawn Everett, Tom Elmhurst etc. who think their work should be amazingly loud.
>> 
>> They do their own pre-mastering to their flat mixes and send those highly compressed mixes to the client for their listening references.  Their clients don?t even get to HEAR the raw mixes which are typically 5-10 dB less compressed than the listening references. 
>> 
>> If you are used to looking at VU meters:  Our mastering rooms are calibrated so 1kHz @ -14dBFS = 0 VU on our consoles.  I remember when DATs were first being used in 1987 and mixes to DAT used to peak around +2 to +4 VU.  Today I routinely get in listening mixes from the mix engineers that peak at +10 or even +12VU! I mean +14VU is all that is possible!  Distorted? Yes indeed!!  I guess it is part of the ethos of it now.  
>> 
>> The A&R people, the artists and certainly the mixers expect me to at LEAST match their listening reference level, a level I would normally never dream of going that high..
>> 
>> I try to do what I can.  I tell clients about Spotify loudness normalization and how they can get a feel for that by comparing flat mixes vs. compressed mixes with Sound Check turned on in iTunes. When we start a project there is often a key song that they want mastered before the album comes out and I will send them both dynamic and hot versions and 90% of the time they pick the hot one. 
>> 
>> For me, 2 of my ?Best Engineered? Grammy Awards are for records that are mixed and thus mastered way too hot: the Beck ?Morning Phase? and the Alabama Shakes album that is just crazy loud.  Those nominations are chosen by craft committees the Recording Academy puts together of the best mixers and well regarded mastering engineers.  I don?t understand it!
>> 
>> Years ago when the mixers started doing this I would only be supplied with their low level original mixes (the ones the A&R people and the artist have never heard!).  I would master the album to sound as good as possible and everyone would report back how small and wimpy it sounded? and how could someone like me even submit something so bad?   We discovered this insane absurdity of them not supplying the mastering engineer with the very mixes everyone but us were listening to and USED TO! Once I heard what they were hearing everything was fine.   So in short order our front office now asks specifically to be supplied with the non-smashed mixes as well as the files everyone else has been hearing.  It has been one of the most unexpected and disappointing situations. 
>> 
>> All my best,
>> Bob Ludwig
>> 
>> 
>>> On Feb 9, 2019, at 10:25 AM, Kevin Gross <kevin.gross at avanw.com <mailto:kevin.gross at avanw.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I was surprised to learn from Bob Ludwig's quotes that loudness normalization has not been successful at stemming the loudness war. Are others here in agreement with this assessment?
>>> 
>>> Kevin Gross - AVA Networks
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
> 
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl

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From bobkatz at digido.com  Sun Feb 10 15:38:12 2019
From: bobkatz at digido.com (Bob Katz)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2019 09:38:12 -0500
Subject: [MLA] Loudness War in New York Times
In-Reply-To: <76E09C73-59A1-4C78-897B-AB275C91FF07@gmail.com>
References: <6B53EC47-F16D-4FB3-B502-AB894D6CA471@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<505ea5c2-8cdc-a244-db29-03dec95c1939@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q3v+uzokStBg3sSjf_MbvUurYc+bKL3B6kJsOtg+dwRsA@mail.gmail.com>
	<de464ee8-3a91-eea2-9ddc-e18b262022e5@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q2cyG_y_uxnkU9n0cF6TX2Aj9e+qbAzMt=S9fRnbFdBew@mail.gmail.com>
	<422959F1-804D-4B2C-92F4-763726FF371D@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q3Neu_kUAv=pRBwty-9sdCAAwDPmjFN1DUZCTxL62YjbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<E9F1517B-EF6D-4B99-8C95-00EEE9BAF4CB@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q0Ne3RyW2_YJY=RLVd+dv61CdqoaDzK95a2U19sk7kYEg@mail.gmail.com>
	<3624B7CE-64E5-4E6A-A103-80490FE2E204@grimmaudio.com>
	<F7883F7B-4649-4AF2-B6A2-BAF33FF0E8FE@mac.com>
	<5a121d6e-deda-b415-a133-2e8ff402afce@digido.com> <
	423174EC-FB0F-4194-9088-9C66299B171D@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q0z=X+V=JbfU=Rj394kgwwGSeTfdck9VYtFMu=WO4ymog@mail.gmail.com>
	<A595C8F4-BFCA-4310-B3F8-8496ECA08C79@mac.com>
	<76E09C73-59A1-4C78-897B-AB275C91FF07@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <91d08880-e786-8641-b71b-100dae2ba3ed@digido.com>

Doing mixes on spec is the worst kind of slave labor. You can spend a 
day or more on a good sounding single mix, especially if you don't lean 
on bus processing to mix it for you. :-)

I think that all the mixers should band together to stop this "spec mix 
competition" nonsense. It can't lead anywhere good. The A&R are loving 
it... they don't have to pay to get the workers to do their work for 
them. And the loudest mix wins?? Shit....? I feel nauseous.


Bob K.


On 2/9/19 1:30 PM, Robin Reumers wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I know I totally have no right to comment on this within the group, 
> but I would love to share my personal experience with this. Last year, 
> I got to do a spec mix for a well known Spanish artist. It got 5 Latin 
> Grammy nominations and 1 Grammy nomination. 3 mixers were asked to mix 
> 2 of the singles on the album and then the artist / A&R / producer 
> picked a winner. I ended up not making it, but then I heard the mix 
> that won and I really wanted to understand what they could have liked 
> better about it.
>
> One thing is that his mix that he sent to the client was about 6dBs 
> louder (mine was around -13 LUFS). Mine already had some bus 
> processing on it, to make it compete, but I didn?t want to deliver 
> something at say -7 LUFS. Then I heard that the way these mixes were 
> being listened to was a simple MP3 of each, sent via email. So the way 
> the artist / A&R compares these spec mixes, is typically not loudness 
> normalised. Which means as a mixer, if you want to be safe that your 
> mix gets chosen, it makes ?sense" to make it louder.
>
> I know for example with the last John Mayer album, it was also spec 
> mixed by multiple mixing engineers. So is it possible that those 
> highly paid mixers chose to make it really loud, because it?s the 
> safest bet? Spec mixes seem to be very common nowadays.
>
> Just wanted to share my 2 cents.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Robin
>
>> On 9 Feb 2019, at 09:39, Robert Ludwig <gatewaybob at mac.com 
>> <mailto:gatewaybob at mac.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Kevin,
>> While there are exceptions, like the new Mark Knopfler album, some 
>> albums I work on are mixed louder than I have ever encountered, and 
>> louder than I would have ever considered to be a good final result.
>>
>> So it isn?t the mastering engineers always at fault, it is many of 
>> the very _highest paid_ mixers like Manny Marroquin, Shawn Everett, 
>> Tom Elmhurst etc. who think their work should be amazingly loud.
>>
>> They do their own pre-mastering to their flat mixes and send those 
>> highly compressed mixes to the client for their listening references. 
>> ?Their clients don?t even get to HEAR the raw mixes which are 
>> typically 5-10 dB less compressed than the listening references.
>>
>> If you are used to looking at VU meters: ?Our mastering rooms are 
>> calibrated so 1kHz @ -14dBFS = 0 VU on our consoles. ?I remember when 
>> DATs were first being used in 1987 and mixes to DAT used to peak 
>> around +2 to +4 VU. ?Today I _routinely_ get in listening mixes from 
>> the mix engineers that peak at +10 or even +12VU! I mean +14VU is 
>> _all that is possible_! ?Distorted? Yes indeed!! ?I guess it is part 
>> of the ethos of it now.
>>
>> The A&R people, the artists and certainly the mixers expect me to at 
>> LEAST match their listening reference level, a level I would normally 
>> never dream of going that high..
>>
>> I try to do what I can. ?I tell clients about Spotify loudness 
>> normalization and how they can get a feel for that by comparing flat 
>> mixes vs. compressed mixes with Sound Check turned on in iTunes. When 
>> we start a project there is often a key song that they want mastered 
>> before the album comes out and I will send them both dynamic and hot 
>> versions and 90% of the time they pick the hot one.
>>
>> For me, 2 of my ?Best Engineered? Grammy Awards are for records that 
>> are mixed and thus mastered _way too hot:_?the Beck ?Morning Phase? 
>> and the Alabama Shakes album that is just _crazy_ loud. ?Those 
>> nominations are chosen by _craft committees_?the Recording 
>> Academy?puts together of the best mixers and well regarded mastering 
>> engineers. ?I don?t understand it!
>>
>> Years ago when the mixers started doing this I would only be supplied 
>> with their low level original mixes (the ones the A&R people and the 
>> artist have _never_ heard!). ?I would master the album to sound as 
>> good as possible and everyone would report back how small and wimpy 
>> it sounded? and how could someone like me even _submit_ something so 
>> bad? ? We discovered this insane absurdity of them not supplying the 
>> mastering engineer with the very mixes everyone but us were listening 
>> to and USED TO! Once I heard what they were hearing everything was 
>> fine. ? So in short order our front office now asks specifically to 
>> be supplied with the non-smashed mixes as well as the files everyone 
>> else has been hearing. ?It has been one of the most unexpected and 
>> disappointing situations.
>>
>> All my best,
>> Bob Ludwig
>>
>>
>>> On Feb 9, 2019, at 10:25 AM, Kevin Gross <kevin.gross at avanw.com 
>>> <mailto:kevin.gross at avanw.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I was surprised to learn from Bob Ludwig's quotes that loudness 
>>> normalization has not been successful at stemming the loudness war. 
>>> Are others here in agreement with this assessment?
>>>
>>> Kevin Gross - AVA Networks
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
-- 

If you want good sound on your album, come to Bob Katz 407-831-0233 
DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO Author: *Mastering Audio* Digital Domain 
Website <https://www.digido.com/> No trees were killed in the sending of 
this message. However a large number of electrons were terribly 
inconvenienced.

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From bobkatz at digido.com  Sun Feb 10 15:48:29 2019
From: bobkatz at digido.com (Bob Katz)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2019 09:48:29 -0500
Subject: [MLA] Loudness War in New York Times
In-Reply-To: <CALw1_Q0z=X+V=JbfU=Rj394kgwwGSeTfdck9VYtFMu=WO4ymog@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6B53EC47-F16D-4FB3-B502-AB894D6CA471@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<fe965af7-4e6c-45be-0ca5-046f49b5f0c4@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q04Drna1o=xDKbKnFp-eHYk5r3Qv7PyLEfWHdxmntfLiw@mail.gmail.com>
	<505ea5c2-8cdc-a244-db29-03dec95c1939@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q3v+uzokStBg3sSjf_MbvUurYc+bKL3B6kJsOtg+dwRsA@mail.gmail.com>
	<de464ee8-3a91-eea2-9ddc-e18b262022e5@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q2cyG_y_uxnkU9n0cF6TX2Aj9e+qbAzMt=S9fRnbFdBew@mail.gmail.com>
	<422959F1-804D-4B2C-92F4-763726FF371D@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q3Neu_kUAv=pRBwty-9sdCAAwDPmjFN1DUZCTxL62YjbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<E9F1517B-EF6D-4B99-8C95-00EEE9BAF4CB@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q0Ne3RyW2_YJY=RLVd+dv61CdqoaDzK95a2U19sk7kYEg@mail.gmail.com>
	<3624B7CE-64E5-4E6A-A103-80490FE2E204@grimmaudio.com>
	<F7883F7B-4649-4AF2-B6A2-BAF33FF0E8FE@mac.com>
	<5a121d6e-deda-b415-a133-2e8ff402afce@digido.com>
	<423174EC-FB0F-4194-9088-9C66299B171D@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q0z=X+V=JbfU=Rj394kgwwGSeTfdck9VYtFMu=WO4ymog@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <145465c2-a047-5f54-5cca-e114af576750@digido.com>

Dear Kevin: As Eelco pointed out, in Bob Ludwig's rarefied circle, these 
kinds of abuses occur so often they are the rule rather than the 
exception. I attract many wonderful (thank goodness) Indie artists who 
specifically come to me for the quality of work that I do. So now I'm 
the exception that proves the rule. I'm very proud of a lot of the work 
that I do. I don't know how I could continue in this business if I did 
not love what I do....

And most of the popular music masters that I supply to the world fall in 
a program level range from -16 LUFS to (only occasionally) -14 LUFS. And 
the clients are buying it. I'm a very very lucky guy. I get to make the 
best sounding masters...

It's a cruel, cruel world. Very few mastering engineers are still in my 
position.


Bob K.


On 2/9/19 10:25 AM, Kevin Gross wrote:
> I was surprised to learn from Bob Ludwig's quotes that loudness 
> normalization has not been successful at stemming the loudness war. 
> Are others here in agreement with this assessment?
>
> Kevin Gross - AVA Networks
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 8, 2019 at 4:00 PM Grimm | Eelco <eelco at grimmaudio.com 
> <mailto:eelco at grimmaudio.com>> wrote:
>
>     Hi Bob and Bob,
>
>     Good that you were able to comment on the article before publication!
>
>>     Unfortunately, I gave in when I saw the 30 second version of
>>     Chinoy's graphics. I told him there just wasn't enough
>>     information in there. That the sonic differences between at least
>>     two different examples that they published, were not reflected in
>>     the red dots of the peak level. I said for a consumer article it
>>     was "good enough", but I would not let those graphics go in a
>>     professional context.
>>
>
>     Yeah, that?s a shame. But still I am glad for attention to the
>     loudness war in one of the world?s best read news papers...
>
>     Cheers,
>     Eelco
>     _______________________________________________
>     MLA mailing list
>     MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>     http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
-- 

If you want good sound on your album, come to Bob Katz 407-831-0233 
DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO Author: *Mastering Audio* Digital Domain 
Website <https://www.digido.com/> No trees were killed in the sending of 
this message. However a large number of electrons were terribly 
inconvenienced.

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From bobkatz at digido.com  Sun Feb 10 16:15:12 2019
From: bobkatz at digido.com (Bob Katz)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2019 10:15:12 -0500
Subject: [MLA] Loudness War in New York Times
In-Reply-To: <91d08880-e786-8641-b71b-100dae2ba3ed@digido.com>
References: <6B53EC47-F16D-4FB3-B502-AB894D6CA471@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<505ea5c2-8cdc-a244-db29-03dec95c1939@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q3v+uzokStBg3sSjf_MbvUurYc+bKL3B6kJsOtg+dwRsA@mail.gmail.com>
	<de464ee8-3a91-eea2-9ddc-e18b262022e5@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q2cyG_y_uxnkU9n0cF6TX2Aj9e+qbAzMt=S9fRnbFdBew@mail.gmail.com>
	<422959F1-804D-4B2C-92F4-763726FF371D@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q3Neu_kUAv=pRBwty-9sdCAAwDPmjFN1DUZCTxL62YjbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<E9F1517B-EF6D-4B99-8C95-00EEE9BAF4CB@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q0Ne3RyW2_YJY=RLVd+dv61CdqoaDzK95a2U19sk7kYEg@mail.gmail.com>
	<3624B7CE-64E5-4E6A-A103-80490FE2E204@grimmaudio.com>
	<F7883F7B-4649-4AF2-B6A2-BAF33FF0E8FE@mac.com>
	<5a121d6e-deda-b415-a133-2e8ff402afce@digido.com> <
	423174EC-FB0F-4194-9088-9C66299B171D@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q0z=X+V=JbfU=Rj394kgwwGSeTfdck9VYtFMu=WO4ymog@mail.gmail.com>
	<A595C8F4-BFCA-4310-B3F8-8496ECA08C79@mac.com>
	<76E09C73-59A1-4C78-897B-AB275C91FF07@gmail.com>
	<91d08880-e786-8641-b71b-100dae2ba3ed@digido.com>
Message-ID: <de316a4c-c49e-54d6-7d53-b034f445a2c9@digido.com>

I lost a spec mix several years ago. The competition was a mix engineer 
who works at a well-known mastering house in Colorado. I was very 
disappointed in the quality of his mix which I got to hear. It was 
louder but squished in a bad way. It had been mixed the cheater's way, 
by pushing a bus compressor to the hilt. It was acoustic folk music! The 
artist loved it for some reason. Basically I cannot work that way, so I 
just took it in stride and never looked back.

We are often using a bus compressor these days in the mix room, but as a 
method of gluing. And sometimes to help give rock mixes a bit of 
attitude. But the gluer is not a substitute for good ol' fashioned fader 
moving....? It takes longer to do it my way, but the sonic rewards are 
very high.


Many years ago I was hired to mix a song in a studio on Long Island 
mixing with what I'm positive is an obviously deaf arranger. He kept 
asking me to push each instrument of a string quartet up and up and up 
so he could hear every single note. It was instantly the "everything 
louder than everything else" game time. No subtlety. A very frustrating 
day. I did what he asked but maybe I should have just pushed everything 
into a compressor. For a string quartet! Are people going deaf?

I've been known to use parallel compression on string sections to help 
get "that sound", especially in a rock or pop mix, to fit the strings 
into a dense mix, or to get that "Beatles" sound. But I still mix with 
taste, as always after decades in this business.


Bob



On 2/10/19 9:38 AM, Bob Katz wrote:
>
> Doing mixes on spec is the worst kind of slave labor. You can spend a 
> day or more on a good sounding single mix, especially if you don't 
> lean on bus processing to mix it for you. :-)
>
> I think that all the mixers should band together to stop this "spec 
> mix competition" nonsense. It can't lead anywhere good. The A&R are 
> loving it... they don't have to pay to get the workers to do their 
> work for them. And the loudest mix wins? Shit....? I feel nauseous.
>
>
> Bob K.
>
>
> On 2/9/19 1:30 PM, Robin Reumers wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I know I totally have no right to comment on this within the group, 
>> but I would love to share my personal experience with this. Last 
>> year, I got to do a spec mix for a well known Spanish artist. It got 
>> 5 Latin Grammy nominations and 1 Grammy nomination. 3 mixers were 
>> asked to mix 2 of the singles on the album and then the artist / A&R 
>> / producer picked a winner. I ended up not making it, but then I 
>> heard the mix that won and I really wanted to understand what they 
>> could have liked better about it.
>>
>> One thing is that his mix that he sent to the client was about 6dBs 
>> louder (mine was around -13 LUFS). Mine already had some bus 
>> processing on it, to make it compete, but I didn?t want to deliver 
>> something at say -7 LUFS. Then I heard that the way these mixes were 
>> being listened to was a simple MP3 of each, sent via email. So the 
>> way the artist / A&R compares these spec mixes, is typically not 
>> loudness normalised. Which means as a mixer, if you want to be safe 
>> that your mix gets chosen, it makes ?sense" to make it louder.
>>
>> I know for example with the last John Mayer album, it was also spec 
>> mixed by multiple mixing engineers. So is it possible that those 
>> highly paid mixers chose to make it really loud, because it?s the 
>> safest bet? Spec mixes seem to be very common nowadays.
>>
>> Just wanted to share my 2 cents.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Robin
>>
>>> On 9 Feb 2019, at 09:39, Robert Ludwig <gatewaybob at mac.com 
>>> <mailto:gatewaybob at mac.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Kevin,
>>> While there are exceptions, like the new Mark Knopfler album, some 
>>> albums I work on are mixed louder than I have ever encountered, and 
>>> louder than I would have ever considered to be a good final result.
>>>
>>> So it isn?t the mastering engineers always at fault, it is many of 
>>> the very _highest paid_ mixers like Manny Marroquin, Shawn Everett, 
>>> Tom Elmhurst etc. who think their work should be amazingly loud.
>>>
>>> They do their own pre-mastering to their flat mixes and send those 
>>> highly compressed mixes to the client for their listening 
>>> references. ?Their clients don?t even get to HEAR the raw mixes 
>>> which are typically 5-10 dB less compressed than the listening 
>>> references.
>>>
>>> If you are used to looking at VU meters: ?Our mastering rooms are 
>>> calibrated so 1kHz @ -14dBFS = 0 VU on our consoles. ?I remember 
>>> when DATs were first being used in 1987 and mixes to DAT used to 
>>> peak around +2 to +4 VU. ?Today I _routinely_ get in listening mixes 
>>> from the mix engineers that peak at +10 or even +12VU! I mean +14VU 
>>> is _all that is possible_! ?Distorted? Yes indeed!! ?I guess it is 
>>> part of the ethos of it now.
>>>
>>> The A&R people, the artists and certainly the mixers expect me to at 
>>> LEAST match their listening reference level, a level I would 
>>> normally never dream of going that high..
>>>
>>> I try to do what I can. ?I tell clients about Spotify loudness 
>>> normalization and how they can get a feel for that by comparing flat 
>>> mixes vs. compressed mixes with Sound Check turned on in iTunes. 
>>> When we start a project there is often a key song that they want 
>>> mastered before the album comes out and I will send them both 
>>> dynamic and hot versions and 90% of the time they pick the hot one.
>>>
>>> For me, 2 of my ?Best Engineered? Grammy Awards are for records that 
>>> are mixed and thus mastered _way too hot:_?the Beck ?Morning Phase? 
>>> and the Alabama Shakes album that is just _crazy_ loud. ?Those 
>>> nominations are chosen by _craft committees_?the Recording 
>>> Academy?puts together of the best mixers and well regarded mastering 
>>> engineers. ?I don?t understand it!
>>>
>>> Years ago when the mixers started doing this I would only be 
>>> supplied with their low level original mixes (the ones the A&R 
>>> people and the artist have _never_ heard!). ?I would master the 
>>> album to sound as good as possible and everyone would report back 
>>> how small and wimpy it sounded? and how could someone like me even 
>>> _submit_ something so bad? ? We discovered this insane absurdity of 
>>> them not supplying the mastering engineer with the very mixes 
>>> everyone but us were listening to and USED TO! Once I heard what 
>>> they were hearing everything was fine. ? So in short order our front 
>>> office now asks specifically to be supplied with the non-smashed 
>>> mixes as well as the files everyone else has been hearing. ?It has 
>>> been one of the most unexpected and disappointing situations.
>>>
>>> All my best,
>>> Bob Ludwig
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Feb 9, 2019, at 10:25 AM, Kevin Gross <kevin.gross at avanw.com 
>>>> <mailto:kevin.gross at avanw.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I was surprised to learn from Bob Ludwig's quotes that loudness 
>>>> normalization has not been successful at stemming the loudness war. 
>>>> Are others here in agreement with this assessment?
>>>>
>>>> Kevin Gross - AVA Networks
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> MLA mailing list
>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
> -- 
> If you want good sound on your album, come to Bob Katz 407-831-0233 
> DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO Author: *Mastering Audio* Digital 
> Domain Website <https://www.digido.com/> No trees were killed in the 
> sending of this message. However a large number of electrons were 
> terribly inconvenienced.
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
-- 

If you want good sound on your album, come to Bob Katz 407-831-0233 
DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO Author: *Mastering Audio* Digital Domain 
Website <https://www.digido.com/> No trees were killed in the sending of 
this message. However a large number of electrons were terribly 
inconvenienced.

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From eelco at grimmaudio.com  Sun Feb 10 23:08:48 2019
From: eelco at grimmaudio.com (Grimm | Eelco)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2019 23:08:48 +0100
Subject: [MLA] Loudness War in New York Times
In-Reply-To: <de316a4c-c49e-54d6-7d53-b034f445a2c9@digido.com>
References: <6B53EC47-F16D-4FB3-B502-AB894D6CA471@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<505ea5c2-8cdc-a244-db29-03dec95c1939@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q3v+uzokStBg3sSjf_MbvUurYc+bKL3B6kJsOtg+dwRsA@mail.gmail.com>
	<de464ee8-3a91-eea2-9ddc-e18b262022e5@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q2cyG_y_uxnkU9n0cF6TX2Aj9e+qbAzMt=S9fRnbFdBew@mail.gmail.com>
	<422959F1-804D-4B2C-92F4-763726FF371D@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q3Neu_kUAv=pRBwty-9sdCAAwDPmjFN1DUZCTxL62YjbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<E9F1517B-EF6D-4B99-8C95-00EEE9BAF4CB@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q0Ne3RyW2_YJY=RLVd+dv61CdqoaDzK95a2U19sk7kYEg@mail.gmail.com>
	<3624B7CE-64E5-4E6A-A103-80490FE2E204@grimmaudio.com>
	<F7883F7B-4649-4AF2-B6A2-BAF33FF0E8FE@mac.com>
	<5a121d6e-deda-b415-a133-2e8ff402afce@digido.com> <
	423174EC-FB0F-4194-9088-9C66299B171D@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q0z=X+V=JbfU=Rj394kgwwGSeTfdck9VYtFMu=WO4ymog@mail.gmail.com>
	<A595C8F4-BFCA-4310-B3F8-8496ECA08C79@mac.com>
	<76E09C73-59A1-4C78-897B-AB275C91FF07@gmail.com>
	<91d08880-e786-8641-b71b-100dae2ba3ed@digido.com>
	<de316a4c-c49e-54d6-7d53-b034f445a2c9@digido.com>
Message-ID: <9A719DD5-2B78-4388-A537-28634DE662AD@grimmaudio.com>

Hi all,

I received a message from Wessel Oltheten about his mastering loudness level. I have put it in Google Translate to give you an impression of this positive story:

"I have now delivered everything at -14 a -13LUFS in the past three years, and some acoustic albums even softer. And I mean everything. For the past three years I send the following 'disclaimer' along with every file that goes out the door:

> Finally, a little information about loudness: the masters are aligned to the loudness that streaming services like Spotify, YouTube and Tidal use. This means that the masters are hardly restricted in terms of dynamics - good news for the music! But the files may appear softer compared to other materials. This is not the way the consumer will hear it; if you want to get a real picture you can best compare the masters in iTunes with other tracks: if you enable the 'sound check' option in the preferences, iTunes plays your entire library on the same loudness, similar to the way streaming services and broadcasters normalize loudness.

In those three years I have sometimes had to give some extra explanation, but there is no one, but no one at all, who asked me for a louder master! Last year I worked on 600 songs for more than 100 different customers, so I think that's a nice sample. I even notice that people (including musicians) are already familiar with the information about standardization. They then trust that I know what number it should be, and just listen to the sound. In my world of relatively small artists it is therefore nice and grateful to be allowed to work, and 'persevering' does not cost any effort. That is beautiful thanks to PLOUD, Spotify and YouTube!

PS I did tell one big dance label at the time that I do not want to work for them anymore because they only kept asking for a ridiculous rms-number after my explanation. In this case, the artist and producer had even asked me if I could go back a step further in loudness with respect to my first master (!), But there was a disagreement with the label that kept insisting on making it loud. Ah, I do not miss such customers and I'm busier than ever.?

Now, that is what I mean an encouraging story? Loudness normalizing does help.

All the best,
Eelco



From kevin.gross at avanw.com  Mon Feb 11 21:54:29 2019
From: kevin.gross at avanw.com (Kevin Gross)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2019 13:54:29 -0700
Subject: [MLA] Loudness War in New York Times
In-Reply-To: <9A719DD5-2B78-4388-A537-28634DE662AD@grimmaudio.com>
References: <6B53EC47-F16D-4FB3-B502-AB894D6CA471@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<505ea5c2-8cdc-a244-db29-03dec95c1939@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q3v+uzokStBg3sSjf_MbvUurYc+bKL3B6kJsOtg+dwRsA@mail.gmail.com>
	<de464ee8-3a91-eea2-9ddc-e18b262022e5@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q2cyG_y_uxnkU9n0cF6TX2Aj9e+qbAzMt=S9fRnbFdBew@mail.gmail.com>
	<422959F1-804D-4B2C-92F4-763726FF371D@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q3Neu_kUAv=pRBwty-9sdCAAwDPmjFN1DUZCTxL62YjbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<E9F1517B-EF6D-4B99-8C95-00EEE9BAF4CB@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q0Ne3RyW2_YJY=RLVd+dv61CdqoaDzK95a2U19sk7kYEg@mail.gmail.com>
	<3624B7CE-64E5-4E6A-A103-80490FE2E204@grimmaudio.com>
	<F7883F7B-4649-4AF2-B6A2-BAF33FF0E8FE@mac.com>
	<5a121d6e-deda-b415-a133-2e8ff402afce@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q0z=X+V=JbfU=Rj394kgwwGSeTfdck9VYtFMu=WO4ymog@mail.gmail.com>
	<A595C8F4-BFCA-4310-B3F8-8496ECA08C79@mac.com>
	<76E09C73-59A1-4C78-897B-AB275C91FF07@gmail.com>
	<91d08880-e786-8641-b71b-100dae2ba3ed@digido.com>
	<de316a4c-c49e-54d6-7d53-b034f445a2c9@digido.com>
	<9A719DD5-2B78-4388-A537-28634DE662AD@grimmaudio.com>
Message-ID: <CALw1_Q3aktmH7U31vgZnjDfGQcSDdCOFiqW_ZBtTS37C2Ax0Fg@mail.gmail.com>

That's an encouraging story, Eelco.

Sounds like we're getting significantly different outcomes in different
areas of audio.

I guess it was naive to hope that normalization would fix everything
because radio has been normalized all along and yet, here we are.

Kevin Gross - AVA Networks


On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 3:09 PM Grimm | Eelco <eelco at grimmaudio.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I received a message from Wessel Oltheten about his mastering loudness
> level. I have put it in Google Translate to give you an impression of this
> positive story:
>
> "I have now delivered everything at -14 a -13LUFS in the past three years,
> and some acoustic albums even softer. And I mean everything. For the past
> three years I send the following 'disclaimer' along with every file that
> goes out the door:
>
> > Finally, a little information about loudness: the masters are aligned to
> the loudness that streaming services like Spotify, YouTube and Tidal use.
> This means that the masters are hardly restricted in terms of dynamics -
> good news for the music! But the files may appear softer compared to other
> materials. This is not the way the consumer will hear it; if you want to
> get a real picture you can best compare the masters in iTunes with other
> tracks: if you enable the 'sound check' option in the preferences, iTunes
> plays your entire library on the same loudness, similar to the way
> streaming services and broadcasters normalize loudness.
>
> In those three years I have sometimes had to give some extra explanation,
> but there is no one, but no one at all, who asked me for a louder master!
> Last year I worked on 600 songs for more than 100 different customers, so I
> think that's a nice sample. I even notice that people (including musicians)
> are already familiar with the information about standardization. They then
> trust that I know what number it should be, and just listen to the sound.
> In my world of relatively small artists it is therefore nice and grateful
> to be allowed to work, and 'persevering' does not cost any effort. That is
> beautiful thanks to PLOUD, Spotify and YouTube!
>
> PS I did tell one big dance label at the time that I do not want to work
> for them anymore because they only kept asking for a ridiculous rms-number
> after my explanation. In this case, the artist and producer had even asked
> me if I could go back a step further in loudness with respect to my first
> master (!), But there was a disagreement with the label that kept insisting
> on making it loud. Ah, I do not miss such customers and I'm busier than
> ever.?
>
> Now, that is what I mean an encouraging story? Loudness normalizing does
> help.
>
> All the best,
> Eelco
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>
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From ian at mastering-media.co.uk  Tue Feb 12 01:31:31 2019
From: ian at mastering-media.co.uk (Ian Shepherd)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 00:31:31 +0000
Subject: [MLA] Loudness War in New York Times
In-Reply-To: <CALw1_Q3aktmH7U31vgZnjDfGQcSDdCOFiqW_ZBtTS37C2Ax0Fg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6B53EC47-F16D-4FB3-B502-AB894D6CA471@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<505ea5c2-8cdc-a244-db29-03dec95c1939@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q3v+uzokStBg3sSjf_MbvUurYc+bKL3B6kJsOtg+dwRsA@mail.gmail.com>
	<de464ee8-3a91-eea2-9ddc-e18b262022e5@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q2cyG_y_uxnkU9n0cF6TX2Aj9e+qbAzMt=S9fRnbFdBew@mail.gmail.com>
	<422959F1-804D-4B2C-92F4-763726FF371D@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q3Neu_kUAv=pRBwty-9sdCAAwDPmjFN1DUZCTxL62YjbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<E9F1517B-EF6D-4B99-8C95-00EEE9BAF4CB@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q0Ne3RyW2_YJY=RLVd+dv61CdqoaDzK95a2U19sk7kYEg@mail.gmail.com>
	<3624B7CE-64E5-4E6A-A103-80490FE2E204@grimmaudio.com>
	<F7883F7B-4649-4AF2-B6A2-BAF33FF0E8FE@mac.com>
	<5a121d6e-deda-b415-a133-2e8ff402afce@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q0z=X+V=JbfU=Rj394kgwwGSeTfdck9VYtFMu=WO4ymog@mail.gmail.com>
	<A595C8F4-BFCA-4310-B3F8-8496ECA08C79@mac.com>
	<76E09C73-59A1-4C78-897B-AB275C91FF07@gmail.com>
	<91d08880-e786-8641-b71b-100dae2ba3ed@digido.com>
	<de316a4c-c49e-54d6-7d53-b034f445a2c9@digido.com>
	<9A719DD5-2B78-4388-A537-28634DE662AD@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q3aktmH7U31vgZnjDfGQcSDdCOFiqW_ZBtTS37C2Ax0Fg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5FA4FD90-22CA-468A-B06C-CFEFCF7A45D9@mastering-media.co.uk>


Great story, thanks for sharing, Eelco !

Kevin, I?m somewhere in the middle of the two extremes described by Bob K & Bob L. In the last few years I?ve had no requests to master anything any louder than I was comfortable with, and a couple of times I?ve even been asked to make things more dynamic !

But, like Bob K I do next to no major label work, any more - and my ?brand? is very strongly associated with dynamics, so I think my client base is skewed heavily away from people who want things super-loud. I?ve had several people come to me specifically because they had their music mastered by a ?big name? studios, unnecessarily loud, and they?ve been delighted by my more dynamic versions. 

Overall I?d say things seem more polarised to me - some people are moving to more sane levels, others are pushing even harder towards the loud extremes.

I?ve also had some criticism from established engineers for whom ?loud? is an important part of that they offer, saying that I don?t understand the commercial pressures etc, and that certain genres ?need? a certain sound. Of course I do understand this, I?ve heard it from many engineers, not just Bob - also people tell me the artists sometimes choose the crushed, distorted sound even when they hear it level-matched - because it fits with what they?ve been listening to :-/

On the plus side, I think it?s still very early days in all this, even though it seems like forever to all of us. Only in the last year or two have I seen people discussing normalisation in mainstream audio forums - and these are still the ?bleeding edge? of people who are interested in the technical details and what sounds best. 

It is being discussed all the time now though, and since I launched the Loudness Penalty <http://www.loudnesspenalty.com/> site with MeterPlugs I?ve seen it mentioned and recommended more and more - we?ve had push-back over the deliberately provocative name, but also many messages from people saying Thank You, and that it?s opened their eyes or enabled them to persuade clients, just like the email paragraph in Eelco?s message. 

My conclusion: the current situation is often depressing, especially listening to mainstream major label releases, but I?m still optimistic - largely because of the impact normalization is starting to have.

Cheers !

Ian


PS. This discussion prompted me to check - the petition <https://www.change.org/p/music-streaming-services-bring-peace-to-the-loudness-war> that Bob, Eelco, Matt Mayfield and I set up is almost at 10,000 signatures, now - that seems like something worth shouting (quietly) about on Dynamic Range Day this year !




> On 11 Feb 2019, at 20:54, Kevin Gross <kevin.gross at avanw.com> wrote:
> 
> That's an encouraging story, Eelco.
> 
> Sounds like we're getting significantly different outcomes in different areas of audio.
> 
> I guess it was naive to hope that normalization would fix everything because radio has been normalized all along and yet, here we are.
> 
> Kevin Gross - AVA Networks

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From eelco at grimmaudio.com  Fri Feb 15 23:44:42 2019
From: eelco at grimmaudio.com (Grimm | Eelco)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 23:44:42 +0100
Subject: [MLA] WHO-ITU standard
In-Reply-To: <5FA4FD90-22CA-468A-B06C-CFEFCF7A45D9@mastering-media.co.uk>
References: <6B53EC47-F16D-4FB3-B502-AB894D6CA471@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<505ea5c2-8cdc-a244-db29-03dec95c1939@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q3v+uzokStBg3sSjf_MbvUurYc+bKL3B6kJsOtg+dwRsA@mail.gmail.com>
	<de464ee8-3a91-eea2-9ddc-e18b262022e5@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q2cyG_y_uxnkU9n0cF6TX2Aj9e+qbAzMt=S9fRnbFdBew@mail.gmail.com>
	<422959F1-804D-4B2C-92F4-763726FF371D@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q3Neu_kUAv=pRBwty-9sdCAAwDPmjFN1DUZCTxL62YjbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<E9F1517B-EF6D-4B99-8C95-00EEE9BAF4CB@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q0Ne3RyW2_YJY=RLVd+dv61CdqoaDzK95a2U19sk7kYEg@mail.gmail.com>
	<3624B7CE-64E5-4E6A-A103-80490FE2E204@grimmaudio.com>
	<F7883F7B-4649-4AF2-B6A2-BAF33FF0E8FE@mac.com>
	<5a121d6e-deda-b415-a133-2e8ff402afce@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q0z=X+V=JbfU=Rj394kgwwGSeTfdck9VYtFMu=WO4ymog@mail.gmail.com>
	<A595C8F4-BFCA-4310-B3F8-8496ECA08C79@mac.com>
	<76E09C73-59A1-4C78-897B-AB275C91FF07@gmail.com>
	<91d08880-e786-8641-b71b-100dae2ba3ed@digido.com>
	<de316a4c-c49e-54d6-7d53-b034f445a2c9@digido.com>
	<9A719DD5-2B78-4388-A537-28634DE662AD@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q3aktmH7U31vgZnjDfGQcSDdCOFiqW_ZBtTS37C2Ax0Fg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5FA4FD90-22CA-468A-B06C-CFEFCF7A45D9@mastering-media.co.uk>
Message-ID: <0FCF7C04-9C99-4E80-8730-8FBA876FA5CC@grimmaudio.com>

Hi Thomas,

I just noticed that the WHO and ITU have ?adopted? the new Cenelec mobile devices standard with the dosimeter: https://www.who.int/deafness/make-listening-safe/standard-for-safe-listening/en/

That is _great_ news for the world. Am I right that you have helped a bit to put this topic on their agenda? In that case your Karma has grown to very large proportions? :-)

All the best,
Eelco

From thomas at lund.one  Sat Feb 16 14:53:03 2019
From: thomas at lund.one (Thomas Lund)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2019 14:53:03 +0100
Subject: [MLA] ***SPAM***  WHO-ITU standard
In-Reply-To: <0FCF7C04-9C99-4E80-8730-8FBA876FA5CC@grimmaudio.com>
References: <6B53EC47-F16D-4FB3-B502-AB894D6CA471@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<505ea5c2-8cdc-a244-db29-03dec95c1939@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q3v+uzokStBg3sSjf_MbvUurYc+bKL3B6kJsOtg+dwRsA@mail.gmail.com>
	<de464ee8-3a91-eea2-9ddc-e18b262022e5@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q2cyG_y_uxnkU9n0cF6TX2Aj9e+qbAzMt=S9fRnbFdBew@mail.gmail.com>
	<422959F1-804D-4B2C-92F4-763726FF371D@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q3Neu_kUAv=pRBwty-9sdCAAwDPmjFN1DUZCTxL62YjbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<E9F1517B-EF6D-4B99-8C95-00EEE9BAF4CB@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<CALw1_Q0Ne3RyW2_YJY=RLVd+dv61CdqoaDzK95a2U19sk7kYEg@mail.gmail.com>
	<3624B7CE-64E5-4E6A-A103-80490FE2E204@grimmaudio.com>
	<F7883F7B-4649-4AF2-B6A2-BAF33FF0E8FE@mac.com>
	<5a121d6e-deda-b415-a133-2e8ff402afce@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q0z=X+V=JbfU=Rj394kgwwGSeTfdck9VYtFMu=WO4ymog@mail.gmail.com>
	<A595C8F4-BFCA-4310-B3F8-8496ECA08C79@mac.com>
	<76E09C73-59A1-4C78-897B-AB275C91FF07@gmail.com>
	<91d08880-e786-8641-b71b-100dae2ba3ed@digido.com>
	<de316a4c-c49e-54d6-7d53-b034f445a2c9@digido.com>
	<9A719DD5-2B78-4388-A537-28634DE662AD@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q3aktmH7U31vgZnjDfGQcSDdCOFiqW_ZBtTS37C2Ax0Fg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5FA4FD90-22CA-468A-B06C-CFEFCF7A45D9@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<0FCF7C04-9C99-4E80-8730-8FBA876FA5CC@grimmaudio.com>
Message-ID: <474A4E18-F8D0-4828-A64A-97D52FCD63A2@lund.one>

Hi Eelco,

Thanks for noticing :-) Yes, I?ve been to WHO many times to discuss why a dumb gain restriction wasn?t the way to go.

WHO and ITU also have a liaison with WG3 in Cenelec TC108X, our working group where the dose estimation work was started. Fortunately, they decided to adopt our exposure limits and the weekly timeframe also. There are many Americans in the WHO group, but all reasonable and anchored in facts rather than the silly liberal OSHA guidelines. Otherwise, such synchronisation wouldn?t have been possible.

cheers,
Thomas


On 15 Feb 2019, at 23.44, Grimm | Eelco <eelco at grimmaudio.com> wrote:

Hi Thomas,

I just noticed that the WHO and ITU have ?adopted? the new Cenelec mobile devices standard with the dosimeter: https://www.who.int/deafness/make-listening-safe/standard-for-safe-listening/en/

That is _great_ news for the world. Am I right that you have helped a bit to put this topic on their agenda? In that case your Karma has grown to very large proportions? :-)

All the best,
Eelco
_______________________________________________
MLA mailing list
MLA at grimmaudio.nl
http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl



From gatewaybob at mac.com  Wed Feb 27 19:08:55 2019
From: gatewaybob at mac.com (Robert Ludwig)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 13:08:55 -0500
Subject: [MLA] recent loudness information
In-Reply-To: <EFC4A385-4F11-405B-98DE-84E8C99F4414@grimmaudio.com>
References: <6B53EC47-F16D-4FB3-B502-AB894D6CA471@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<12b9e173-d518-271b-db9d-21e1cb5c9fcd@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q35TiC2bDO3sAk2t98wW-wSDLBMShNzhhEKyB9WqTv_Jg@mail.gmail.com>
	<F76AB116-FF43-4A88-B4A3-2CCA0AB01EA9@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q0kwNBkuyH8NQZ+Giib5mFCqTBMk=pe2D92Cts-kSchVg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5b2285b3-794d-025b-1578-f91f55bf2af8@digido.com>
	<A49C70CA-88AF-4176-9090-6D06748E1509@grimmaudio.com>
	<6ea3ebfd-86d6-8119-c917-822469e0f5d1@digido.com>
	<45FEAFFB-A5C3-4A46-9850-1DA3537214A4@lund.one>
	<dc5dd8c2-5f5c-2367-fa5c-922657ea9abd@digido.com>
	<99380BCE-770B-423F-A88B-D7AC041800D5@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<929D80CC-A291-4C14-A7CC-8711E17BC68B@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<FF289A0B-CC2D-4E2A-950B-637B4BF1BF6F@mac.com>
	<EFC4A385-4F11-405B-98DE-84E8C99F4414@grimmaudio.com>
Message-ID: <2E1A4267-3A20-4EEB-AD8A-D5E199F72FF5@mac.com>

Greetings everyone,

The day after the Grammy Awards the Producers and Engineers wing of The Recording Academy had their annual day-after-the-Grammys Advisory Council meeting at the Biltmore in LA.  

As I am on that Council but I wasn?t in LA I was one of the people on the conference call and unfortunately the phones were down at the Biltmore when the live discussion about Loudness was happening, so I have only today gotten the official notes from the meeting filling me in with the portions I missed.

As the AES has a loudness panel, now Maureen Droney, Emily Lazar and Tom Elmhirst have formed a loudness panel for the P&E Wing.  

After finding out about this I had a phone call with Maureen Droney(whose official title these days is "Managing Director/Producers & Engineers Wing?Recording Technology?)

Apparently Beck (who won again this year for Best Engineered album, his second one) had bitterly complained about the way his album sounded on Spotify.  So the P&E Wing wants to help educate the masses about loudness.

The most interesting thing from my call was Maureen saying the reason we get these mix-engineers submitting these blisteringly hot mixes for mastering is ONLY because the people who create and submit the artist?s DEMOs to the record companies are the root cause of this chain of fools. 

These highly paid and royalty-earning mixers are all in competition with one another, and if the mix they submit to A&R is not at least as loud as the demos A&R were referencing, the A&R dept. won?t accept it and use another mixer that will beat the demo.

I hadn?t really anticipated hearing about this scenario.  So the education needs to go even further back up the chain.

BTW I gave Maureen all of our information including the white papers from our site.  She was especially grateful for Eelco?s paper. 

All my best,

Bob Ludwig

PS:
The P&E Wing Advisory Council agenda contained the following questions from the AES loudness group for the P&E Wing to answer.
========================================
Questions for us from the AES:

o   Do NARAS members have a specific technical opinion about what loudness they should be delivering their content at?
 ? or ? do they want to achieve whatever the best listening experience is for their listeners? What?s the POV of the recording engineers and their artists?

o   If a player can provide more than adequate gain, do NARAS members feel there is a technical or creative penalty for delivering the average loudness of their recordings at values as soft as -24LKFS? If so, this needs to be addressed ASAP.

o   Are NARAS members familiar with the LKFS/LUFS  measurement technique that is used in the internationally accepted ITU-R BS.1770 standard? This method is the uncontested algorithm that contributed to fixing loudness globally for DTV. It seems all distributed audio is headed in this direction. It?s important we all are working with the same tools. 

o   Does NARAS see a benefit to harmonizing your artist?s content with loudness? of other streaming content like Internet TV (OTT), Internet Radio, Podcasts and Advertising?
=================================================================================

The AES has a Loudness Committee with the goal of making a Recommendation that could standardize compression/leveling for music services as it did for TV sound. Tidal is using a form of the Recommendation and Spotify has shown interest
 
Streaming         Target loudness     Normalisation    Enabled by       Are quiet songs             Is Limiting Service            
in LUFS (approx.)          type                   default?             turned up?                     used?
                                                           
YouTube           -13                                Track                         Yes                            No                                No

Spotify              -14                                 Both                           Yes                            Yes                               Yes

TIDAL (*)          -14                                 Album                       Yes                            No                                No

Pandora            -14                                Track                        Yes                            Yes                               No

iTunes               -16                                 Both                          No                              Yes                               No

 Spotify now also publishes what it is doing on its Artist Page here:
https://artists.spotify.com/faq/mastering-and loudness#what-is-loudness-normalization-and-why-is-it-used <https://artists.spotify.com/faq/mastering-and%20loudness#what-is-loudness-normalization-and-why-is-it-used>
https://artists.spotify.com/faq/mastering-and-loudness#will-spotify-play-my-track-at-the-level-it%27s-mastered <https://hes32-ctp.trendmicro.com/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=https%3a%2f%2fartists.spotify.com%2ffaq%2fmastering%2dand%2dloudness%23will%2dspotify%2dplay%2dmy%2dtrack%2dat%2dthe%2dlevel%2dit%2527s%2dmastered&umid=b1658228-8477-4d37-bd69-bbbaffe8e50c&auth=844ce87b8192f356b8dc8ceed1c7d187eeaf8cb2-65ff086a64797faaad61efb59e9fa13cd325260b>
There is also this tool: Loudness penalty tester:    https://www.loudnesspenalty.com <https://www.loudnesspenalty.com/>
And this article from the NY Times :  https://nyti.ms/2DYdW8T?smid=nytcore-ios-share <https://nyti.ms/2DYdW8T?smid=nytcore-ios-share>
 
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From ian at mastering-media.co.uk  Thu Feb 28 00:48:11 2019
From: ian at mastering-media.co.uk (Ian Shepherd)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 23:48:11 +0000
Subject: [MLA] recent loudness information
In-Reply-To: <2E1A4267-3A20-4EEB-AD8A-D5E199F72FF5@mac.com>
References: <6B53EC47-F16D-4FB3-B502-AB894D6CA471@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<12b9e173-d518-271b-db9d-21e1cb5c9fcd@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q35TiC2bDO3sAk2t98wW-wSDLBMShNzhhEKyB9WqTv_Jg@mail.gmail.com>
	<F76AB116-FF43-4A88-B4A3-2CCA0AB01EA9@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q0kwNBkuyH8NQZ+Giib5mFCqTBMk=pe2D92Cts-kSchVg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5b2285b3-794d-025b-1578-f91f55bf2af8@digido.com>
	<A49C70CA-88AF-4176-9090-6D06748E1509@grimmaudio.com>
	<6ea3ebfd-86d6-8119-c917-822469e0f5d1@digido.com>
	<45FEAFFB-A5C3-4A46-9850-1DA3537214A4@lund.one>
	<dc5dd8c2-5f5c-2367-fa5c-922657ea9abd@digido.com>
	<99380BCE-770B-423F-A88B-D7AC041800D5@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<929D80CC-A291-4C14-A7CC-8711E17BC68B@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<FF289A0B-CC2D-4E2A-950B-637B4BF1BF6F@mac.com>
	<EFC4A385-4F11-405B-98DE-84E8C99F4414@grimmaudio.com>
	<2E1A4267-3A20-4EEB-AD8A-D5E199F72FF5@mac.com>
Message-ID: <6E0CBFC1-96D4-42A0-8262-C83D3A17F158@mastering-media.co.uk>


Hi Bob,

Thanks for the update. A few things jumped out at me from your email, and I thought I?d respond while it?s still fresh:

> As the AES has a loudness panel, now Maureen Droney, Emily Lazar and Tom Elmhirst have formed a loudness panel for the P&E Wing.

This is ironic - from my perspective Emily?s studio has been responsible for many of the loudest releases over recent years, including the latest Beck album, I believe. Which makes this even more relevant:

> Apparently Beck (who won again this year for Best Engineered album, his second one) had bitterly complained about the way his album sounded on Spotify.  

I wonder if this could be an opportunity, given that you have a history of working with Beck. Perhaps you could demonstrate to him that a more dynamic version can sound just as loud (and potentially better) on Spotify, using the Preview function on the Loudness Penalty site to demonstrate the point ? For some reason people seem to find the automated nature of the site more persuasive than simply being told ?this is what will happen?, and that might apply to him, too.

In fact, Ian Kerr from MeterPlugs and I are about to start beta-testing a plugin version of Loudness Penalty any day now, which we plan to release soon. It gives a real-time measure of the Loudness Penalty, and can be used in a mastering scenario to optimise the results on the fly. I?d be happy to arrange for you to be one of the beta-testers, if you think there?s any mileage in the idea. 

(On the other hand, perhaps Beck is simply comparing the normalised playback with the CD version and not liking it because it?s quieter??)

> So the P&E Wing wants to help educate the masses about loudness

This is great news !

> The most interesting thing from my call was Maureen saying the reason we get these mix-engineers submitting these blisteringly hot mixes for mastering is ONLY because the people who create and submit the artist?s DEMOs to the record companies are the root cause of this chain of fools. 
> 
> These highly paid and royalty-earning mixers are all in competition with one another, and if the mix they submit to A&R is not at least as loud as the demos A&R were referencing, the A&R dept. won?t accept it and use another mixer that will beat the demo.
> 
> I hadn?t really anticipated hearing about this scenario.  So the education needs to go even further back up the chain.

I have to say this doesn?t surprise me especially, but makes perfect sense. On the other hand I recently watched a YouTube video with Dave Pensado where he expressed annoyance at the whole concept of normalisation because it stopped his stuff sounding louder than the work of other ?candy ass? mixers...

Overall I think the most powerful signal the Academy could send would be to stop giving awards to super-loud albums, but that?s obviously a can of worms !

Ian


PS. It?s nice to see my little table sneaking it?s way out into the big wide world ! ??



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From bobkatz at digido.com  Thu Feb 28 02:16:31 2019
From: bobkatz at digido.com (Bob Katz)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 20:16:31 -0500
Subject: [MLA] recent loudness information
In-Reply-To: <6E0CBFC1-96D4-42A0-8262-C83D3A17F158@mastering-media.co.uk>
References: <6B53EC47-F16D-4FB3-B502-AB894D6CA471@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<12b9e173-d518-271b-db9d-21e1cb5c9fcd@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q35TiC2bDO3sAk2t98wW-wSDLBMShNzhhEKyB9WqTv_Jg@mail.gmail.com>
	<F76AB116-FF43-4A88-B4A3-2CCA0AB01EA9@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q0kwNBkuyH8NQZ+Giib5mFCqTBMk=pe2D92Cts-kSchVg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5b2285b3-794d-025b-1578-f91f55bf2af8@digido.com>
	<A49C70CA-88AF-4176-9090-6D06748E1509@grimmaudio.com>
	<6ea3ebfd-86d6-8119-c917-822469e0f5d1@digido.com>
	<45FEAFFB-A5C3-4A46-9850-1DA3537214A4@lund.one>
	<dc5dd8c2-5f5c-2367-fa5c-922657ea9abd@digido.com>
	<99380BCE-770B-423F-A88B-D7AC041800D5@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<929D80CC-A291-4C14-A7CC-8711E17BC68B@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<FF289A0B-CC2D-4E2A-950B-637B4BF1BF6F@mac.com>
	<EFC4A385-4F11-405B-98DE-84E8C99F4414@grimmaudio.com>
	<2E1A4267-3A20-4EEB-AD8A-D5E199F72FF5@mac.com>
	<6E0CBFC1-96D4-42A0-8262-C83D3A17F158@mastering-media.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5523A858-C8D2-4FB9-AEC9-642619C3E6EA@digido.com>

I would be even more graphic since we're among friends here: Putting Emily Lazar on a loudness panel is like asking the fox to guard the hen house. What hypocrisy. 

Bob K

My iPhone made me write this. Quotes only below this line. Nothing more to see here. 
----------------------------------------------------

> On Feb 27, 2019, at 6:48 PM, Ian Shepherd <ian at mastering-media.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Bob,
> 
> Thanks for the update. A few things jumped out at me from your email, and I thought I?d respond while it?s still fresh:
> 
>> As the AES has a loudness panel, now Maureen Droney, Emily Lazar and Tom Elmhirst have formed a loudness panel for the P&E Wing.
> 
> This is ironic - from my perspective Emily?s studio has been responsible for many of the loudest releases over recent years, including the latest Beck album, I believe. Which makes this even more relevant:
> 
>> Apparently Beck (who won again this year for Best Engineered album, his second one) had bitterly complained about the way his album sounded on Spotify.  
> 
> I wonder if this could be an opportunity, given that you have a history of working with Beck. Perhaps you could demonstrate to him that a more dynamic version can sound just as loud (and potentially better) on Spotify, using the Preview function on the Loudness Penalty site to demonstrate the point ? For some reason people seem to find the automated nature of the site more persuasive than simply being told ?this is what will happen?, and that might apply to him, too.
> 
> In fact, Ian Kerr from MeterPlugs and I are about to start beta-testing a plugin version of Loudness Penalty any day now, which we plan to release soon. It gives a real-time measure of the Loudness Penalty, and can be used in a mastering scenario to optimise the results on the fly. I?d be happy to arrange for you to be one of the beta-testers, if you think there?s any mileage in the idea. 
> 
> (On the other hand, perhaps Beck is simply comparing the normalised playback with the CD version and not liking it because it?s quieter??)
> 
>> So the P&E Wing wants to help educate the masses about loudness
> 
> This is great news !
> 
>> The most interesting thing from my call was Maureen saying the reason we get these mix-engineers submitting these blisteringly hot mixes for mastering is ONLY because the people who create and submit the artist?s DEMOs to the record companies are the root cause of this chain of fools. 
>> 
>> These highly paid and royalty-earning mixers are all in competition with one another, and if the mix they submit to A&R is not at least as loud as the demos A&R were referencing, the A&R dept. won?t accept it and use another mixer that will beat the demo.
>> 
>> I hadn?t really anticipated hearing about this scenario.  So the education needs to go even further back up the chain.
> 
> I have to say this doesn?t surprise me especially, but makes perfect sense. On the other hand I recently watched a YouTube video with Dave Pensado where he expressed annoyance at the whole concept of normalisation because it stopped his stuff sounding louder than the work of other ?candy ass? mixers...
> 
> Overall I think the most powerful signal the Academy could send would be to stop giving awards to super-loud albums, but that?s obviously a can of worms !
> 
> Ian
> 
> 
> PS. It?s nice to see my little table sneaking it?s way out into the big wide world ! ??
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
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From bobkatz at digido.com  Thu Feb 28 02:27:32 2019
From: bobkatz at digido.com (Bob Katz)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 20:27:32 -0500
Subject: [MLA] recent loudness information
In-Reply-To: <5523A858-C8D2-4FB9-AEC9-642619C3E6EA@digido.com>
References: <6B53EC47-F16D-4FB3-B502-AB894D6CA471@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<12b9e173-d518-271b-db9d-21e1cb5c9fcd@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q35TiC2bDO3sAk2t98wW-wSDLBMShNzhhEKyB9WqTv_Jg@mail.gmail.com>
	<F76AB116-FF43-4A88-B4A3-2CCA0AB01EA9@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q0kwNBkuyH8NQZ+Giib5mFCqTBMk=pe2D92Cts-kSchVg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5b2285b3-794d-025b-1578-f91f55bf2af8@digido.com>
	<A49C70CA-88AF-4176-9090-6D06748E1509@grimmaudio.com>
	<6ea3ebfd-86d6-8119-c917-822469e0f5d1@digido.com>
	<45FEAFFB-A5C3-4A46-9850-1DA3537214A4@lund.one>
	<dc5dd8c2-5f5c-2367-fa5c-922657ea9abd@digido.com>
	<99380BCE-770B-423F-A88B-D7AC041800D5@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<929D80CC-A291-4C14-A7CC-8711E17BC68B@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<FF289A0B-CC2D-4E2A-950B-637B4BF1BF6F@mac.com>
	<EFC4A385-4F11-405B-98DE-84E8C99F4414@grimmaudio.com>
	<2E1A4267-3A20-4EEB-AD8A-D5E199F72FF5@mac.com>
	<6E0CBFC1-96D4-42A0-8262-C83D3A17F158@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<5523A858-C8D2-4FB9-AEC9-642619C3E6EA@digido.com>
Message-ID: <11A53775-F880-4FAA-9468-F88E67AC3864@digido.com>

And giving "Colors" "best-engineered album" sends absolutely the wrong message. It's tragic. It sets us back years because how do you make a plea when the winner objectively and subjectively is that bad? 

I have been told by members of a craft committee that my work came up several times for best-engineered, but politics and sales and popularity got in the way.  


Bob



My iPhone made me write this. Quotes only below this line. Nothing more to see here. 
----------------------------------------------------

> On Feb 27, 2019, at 8:16 PM, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com> wrote:
> 
> I would be even more graphic since we're among friends here: Putting Emily Lazar on a loudness panel is like asking the fox to guard the hen house. What hypocrisy. 
> 
> Bob K
> 
> My iPhone made me write this. Quotes only below this line. Nothing more to see here. 
> ----------------------------------------------------
> 
>> On Feb 27, 2019, at 6:48 PM, Ian Shepherd <ian at mastering-media.co.uk> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Hi Bob,
>> 
>> Thanks for the update. A few things jumped out at me from your email, and I thought I?d respond while it?s still fresh:
>> 
>>> As the AES has a loudness panel, now Maureen Droney, Emily Lazar and Tom Elmhirst have formed a loudness panel for the P&E Wing.
>> 
>> This is ironic - from my perspective Emily?s studio has been responsible for many of the loudest releases over recent years, including the latest Beck album, I believe. Which makes this even more relevant:
>> 
>>> Apparently Beck (who won again this year for Best Engineered album, his second one) had bitterly complained about the way his album sounded on Spotify.  
>> 
>> I wonder if this could be an opportunity, given that you have a history of working with Beck. Perhaps you could demonstrate to him that a more dynamic version can sound just as loud (and potentially better) on Spotify, using the Preview function on the Loudness Penalty site to demonstrate the point ? For some reason people seem to find the automated nature of the site more persuasive than simply being told ?this is what will happen?, and that might apply to him, too.
>> 
>> In fact, Ian Kerr from MeterPlugs and I are about to start beta-testing a plugin version of Loudness Penalty any day now, which we plan to release soon. It gives a real-time measure of the Loudness Penalty, and can be used in a mastering scenario to optimise the results on the fly. I?d be happy to arrange for you to be one of the beta-testers, if you think there?s any mileage in the idea. 
>> 
>> (On the other hand, perhaps Beck is simply comparing the normalised playback with the CD version and not liking it because it?s quieter??)
>> 
>>> So the P&E Wing wants to help educate the masses about loudness
>> 
>> This is great news !
>> 
>>> The most interesting thing from my call was Maureen saying the reason we get these mix-engineers submitting these blisteringly hot mixes for mastering is ONLY because the people who create and submit the artist?s DEMOs to the record companies are the root cause of this chain of fools. 
>>> 
>>> These highly paid and royalty-earning mixers are all in competition with one another, and if the mix they submit to A&R is not at least as loud as the demos A&R were referencing, the A&R dept. won?t accept it and use another mixer that will beat the demo.
>>> 
>>> I hadn?t really anticipated hearing about this scenario.  So the education needs to go even further back up the chain.
>> 
>> I have to say this doesn?t surprise me especially, but makes perfect sense. On the other hand I recently watched a YouTube video with Dave Pensado where he expressed annoyance at the whole concept of normalisation because it stopped his stuff sounding louder than the work of other ?candy ass? mixers...
>> 
>> Overall I think the most powerful signal the Academy could send would be to stop giving awards to super-loud albums, but that?s obviously a can of worms !
>> 
>> Ian
>> 
>> 
>> PS. It?s nice to see my little table sneaking it?s way out into the big wide world ! ??
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
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