[MLA] Urgent thoughts re: Buddy. DO NOT SEE BUDDY WITHOUT DISCUSSING THIS WITH THE REST OF US IN NYC

Ian Shepherd ian at mastering-media.co.uk
Tue Oct 17 11:46:02 CEST 2017 

Hi All,

One more twist in the Apple / normalization story - out of curiosity I was monitoring the radio “stations” in iTunes the other day, and this is what I found:



The first section is two “stations”, playing best-of and new material. The louder section in the middle is Beats 1 - which all sounded pretty squashed, I wonder if they’re putting it through an FM processor ?! And the final section is a Metal “station", including some seriously aggressive stuff.

This makes me think:

- Apple Radio is being normalized somehow (even though I had Sound Check off)
- Beats 1 is louder than other “stations”
- Different stations / genres have different normalization levels, presumably depending on the typical content

It would be great to find out more about this Eelco, if Buddy is willing to talk about it !

Looking forward to meeting everyone on Thursday evening !

Cheers,

Ian






> On 16 Oct 2017, at 15:11, Bob Katz <bobkatz24bit at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Great. I am still organizing my schedule. I may get to it by today or I may work on it on my flight. Organizing my calendar is the last thing I like to do  :-(
> 
> 
> So stand by on that answer,
> 
> 
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> 
> On 10/16/17 7:22 AM, Grimm | Eelco wrote:
>> Hi Bob,
>> 
>> No worries, I am totally aware of the potential threat of this switching problem - that's why I shared it with MLA.
>> 
>> I meet with Buddy Wednesday evening for dinner. Can you and Thomas find a gap in your schedule either before the Keynote (12:30) or between 15:30 and 17:30?
>> 
>> All the best,
>> Eelco
>> 
>> On 16 okt. 2017, at 12:54, Bob Katz <bobkatz24bit at gmail.com <mailto:bobkatz24bit at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Dear Eelco: Be VERY Careful about this topic of switching loudness normalization in ---- with Buddy. I do know he has thought about it already as I've had some brief conversations with him about this already. HOWEVER, we do not want to postpone Apple normalization by giving him the wrong ideas. And so we must discuss this BEFORE you talk to Buddy.
>>> Below I repeat my post of 10/15 as points of discussion among US first, BEFORE you talk to Buddy. And in fact I urge a discussion with you, me, Thomas and the rest BEFORE you talk to Buddy. We can meet together at the show if you wish.
>>> 
>>> If Buddy had not suggested talking to you alone for sure more of us would have been in that conversation with him. We have to be on the same page first. Fortunately, Buddy is a level-headed person and a good executive so he will take some things into account. 
>>> The main point I want to make is that you are worried too much about a "frictionless transition". Making any mitigation to try to avoid user complaints is a very dangerous and complicated adjustment that could just as easily backfire! It's better that Apple prepare for possible user complaints, but do not make any attempts to mitigate loudness changes when normalization kicks in. It's safer and better to just suck your gut in, make the change and look out for user complaints. If you want to be real safe, you do a beta test on any mitigation proposal. I would participate in any Apple Beta test of this issue.
>>> Keep in mind: Most listeners just adjust their volume controls and go on. They're used to adjusting volume. It's really not such a big deal!  Do you think the switch to EBU-R128 was a big problem? No.... listeners just made a volume control adjustment and it was done. After normalization comes in they'll discover they're moving their volume controls much less, so that's exactly the point! Kevin, I think you're worried about a non-problem. 
>>> For a mitigation approach you would have to do a survey of what kinds of listeners there are and the average impact of a switch to normalization. You cannot assume. And then beta test!
>>> There are some other considerations I repeat below. 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Best wishes,
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Bob K.
>>> 
>>> Below is a repeat of my previous post:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 10/14/17 1:36 PM, Kevin Gross wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> The question is, is there a way that the OS can mitigate the difference between normalization on and off?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> That is a VERY difficult question that we've all been wrestling with for years. I predict that only a small percentage of users will complain. Most of them will just turn their volume controls up a little and cruise. So I would not suggest any kind of complex modification that could become a real software nightmare --- and postpone the introduction of normalization, which we do not want. 
>>> 
>>> There are three classes of listeners who may complain after the switch:
>>> 
>>> 1) Listeners who've been listening to soft material on European-weakened mobile devices. Hopefully the -14 loudest song target for the loudest song in album norm will give sufficient volume-control-room on mobile devices. Thomas was the one to suggest the -14 target for album norm and I bet he already thinks it would work for current European devices or he would have put his foot down by now  :-)   Thomas? 
>>> 
>>> 2) Deaf listeners who like to listen to hard rock LOUD. Things will come down a bit. But my experience with the iPhone at least shows there's tons of room on the volume control on the American device. 
>>> 
>>> So I think Tidal should stress the positive, as has been noted already in this thread. They can say, "if you notice the volume has come down a bit after this change, just turn your volume control up a bit and your experience will be even better than before normalization."
>>> 
>>> 3) Attention Eelco: Listeners who like to listen softly to background music rather than foreground music, at low levels. They're looking for a "processed, broadcast-style radio sound". THIS GROUP OF LISTENERS IS THE REAL GOTCHA. That's because track normalization is a form of upward compression: Soft songs are played louder than they are intended to be. So it forms a kind of free compressor for people who are playing music softly and not attentively. The only solution I think is to provide a track normalization option for those listeners or a compression option. Eelco, I think you should mentally prepare Tidal for this kind of listener. But honestly, I don't think the kind of listener who gravitates to Tidal is a background music listener so this may be more of a problem for Spotify and Prodigy....  Tidal is a quality-oriented service. 
>>> On 10/15/17 3:57 PM, Grimm | Eelco wrote:
>>>> Hi Kevin,
>>>> 
>>>>> As you said originally, doing a frictionless UX transition to normalization always-on or on-by-default is an interesting problem. I think Buddy would be interested in this problem and might throw out some important information we don't know about iTunes or iOS if you got him to do some brainstorming on it.
>>>> Very good suggestion. I have put it on my agenda to discuss with Buddy.
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Eelco
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl <http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl>
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> 
>>> If you want good sound on your album, come to
>>> Bob Katz 407-831-0233 DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
>>> Author: Mastering Audio              
>>> Digital Domain Website <http://www.digido.com/>
>>> 
>>> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
>>> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> If you want good sound on your album, come to
> Bob Katz 407-831-0233 DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
> Author: Mastering Audio              
> Digital Domain Website <http://www.digido.com/>
> 
> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl

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