From eelco at grimmaudio.com  Fri May  6 23:01:09 2016
From: eelco at grimmaudio.com (Grimm | Eelco)
Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 23:01:09 +0200
Subject: [MLA] Apple Music horror story
In-Reply-To: <56D89A72.6030109@digido.com>
References: <9225A3CC-C8F8-42D8-B374-4EC16BC40DD7@mac.com>
	<447750CB-C2AA-49E2-9C54-27D9364E3EE0@grimmaudio.com>
	<56CF10FE.2070002@digido.com>
	<E4EF4A38-136A-4639-A563-6071A653F160@lund.one>
	<5C417773-523F-47C0-A822-368B9039ABAD@grimmaudio.com>
	<11923D5E-E892-4518-B911-8F9980B8930A@lund.one>
	<41788696-07CD-4F56-8BFE-CF223D34A6EC@grimmaudio.com>
	<79A9406C-AF50-4E8B-9A94-C927CB850BB9@lund.one>
	<CALw1_Q0zBx+N+pZEkbfTNDhhAfQyL58oQEcJZUeFmfA7zOE9gQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1BBD5754-3930-4AB8-BF65-6F35045D0105@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q1ysD4rvxWk-ZLscsC3n_GcBqMi5uWk2-D5KSqq5kbuPQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<7CA06E42-EC6F-4FC2-8D9F-FF2B0BEA218A@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q39BHQX0_WPeq-DFC01tvY0pw3=efg5hk0hmFtmYyy9dg@mail.gmail.com>
	<56D7011F.7090005@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q17k-78_4wBqjT+FR9MbZG3Q5jYzmOnmoyR8sHi60VzjA@mail.gmail.com>
	<315D9F9A-E3F6-45B9-848A-27465272C4DB@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q2fc_swLG7HVjzbMc+rReWmb=zUYyh2ob90UUJj6bjR_Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<4862E4BD-048E-4DF8-AE09-8E0CF3B90FD4@grimmaudio.com>
	<56D89A72.6030109@digido.com>
Message-ID: <54E38EBD-79AC-4120-A26C-44AD9C449300@grimmaudio.com>

Dear friends,

If this story is true it is unimaginably horrific. 

https://blog.vellumatlanta.com/2016/05/04/apple-stole-my-music-no-seriously/

Can anyone please tell me it is not true?

Cheers,
Eelco


From bobkatz at digido.com  Sat May  7 00:07:31 2016
From: bobkatz at digido.com (Bob Katz)
Date: Fri, 6 May 2016 18:07:31 -0400
Subject: [MLA] Apple Music horror story
In-Reply-To: <54E38EBD-79AC-4120-A26C-44AD9C449300@grimmaudio.com>
References: <9225A3CC-C8F8-42D8-B374-4EC16BC40DD7@mac.com>
	<E4EF4A38-136A-4639-A563-6071A653F160@lund.one>
	<5C417773-523F-47C0-A822-368B9039ABAD@grimmaudio.com>
	<11923D5E-E892-4518-B911-8F9980B8930A@lund.one>
	<41788696-07CD-4F56-8BFE-CF223D34A6EC@grimmaudio.com>
	<79A9406C-AF50-4E8B-9A94-C927CB850BB9@lund.one>
	<CALw1_Q0zBx+N+pZEkbfTNDhhAfQyL58oQEcJZUeFmfA7zOE9gQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1BBD5754-3930-4AB8-BF65-6F35045D0105@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q1ysD4rvxWk-ZLscsC3n_GcBqMi5uWk2-D5KSqq5kbuPQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<7CA06E42-EC6F-4FC2-8D9F-FF2B0BEA218A@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q39BHQX0_WPeq-DFC01tvY0pw3=efg5hk0hmFtmYyy9dg@mail.gmail.com>
	<56D7011F.7090005@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q17k-78_4wBqjT+FR9MbZG3Q5jYzmOnmoyR8sHi60VzjA@mail.gmail.com>
	<315D9F9A-E3F6-45B9-848A-27465272C4DB@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q2fc_swLG7HVjzbMc+rReWmb=zUYyh2ob90UUJj6bjR_Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<4862E4BD-048E-4DF8-AE09-8E0CF3B90FD4@grimmaudio.com>
	<56D89A72.6030109@digido.com>
	<54E38EBD-79AC-4120-A26C-44AD9C449300@grimmaudio.com>
Message-ID: <06ed9fb8-f95d-a0c4-e07d-7c79d2f5116e@digido.com>

I've seen some discrediting the story. Keep looking we'll watch it develop.



Bob


On 5/6/16 5:01 PM, Grimm | Eelco wrote:
> Dear friends,
>
> If this story is true it is unimaginably horrific.
>
> https://blog.vellumatlanta.com/2016/05/04/apple-stole-my-music-no-seriously/
>
> Can anyone please tell me it is not true?
>
> Cheers,
> Eelco
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl

-- 

If you want good sound on your album, come to Bob Katz 407-831-0233 
DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO Author: *Mastering Audio *Digital Domain 
Website <http://www.digido.com/> No trees were killed in the sending of 
this message. However a large number of electrons were terribly 
inconvenienced.*Please excuse the weird typing - this message dictated 
by microphone. Contact me by regular email. *

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From gatewaybob at mac.com  Sat May  7 00:20:22 2016
From: gatewaybob at mac.com (Robert Ludwig)
Date: Fri, 06 May 2016 18:20:22 -0400
Subject: [MLA] Apple Music horror story
In-Reply-To: <06ed9fb8-f95d-a0c4-e07d-7c79d2f5116e@digido.com>
References: <9225A3CC-C8F8-42D8-B374-4EC16BC40DD7@mac.com>
	<E4EF4A38-136A-4639-A563-6071A653F160@lund.one>
	<5C417773-523F-47C0-A822-368B9039ABAD@grimmaudio.com>
	<11923D5E-E892-4518-B911-8F9980B8930A@lund.one>
	<41788696-07CD-4F56-8BFE-CF223D34A6EC@grimmaudio.com>
	<79A9406C-AF50-4E8B-9A94-C927CB850BB9@lund.one>
	<CALw1_Q0zBx+N+pZEkbfTNDhhAfQyL58oQEcJZUeFmfA7zOE9gQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1BBD5754-3930-4AB8-BF65-6F35045D0105@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q1ysD4rvxWk-ZLscsC3n_GcBqMi5uWk2-D5KSqq5kbuPQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<7CA06E42-EC6F-4FC2-8D9F-FF2B0BEA218A@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q39BHQX0_WPeq-DFC01tvY0pw3=efg5hk0hmFtmYyy9dg@mail.gmail.com>
	<56D7011F.7090005@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q17k-78_4wBqjT+FR9MbZG3Q5jYzmOnmoyR8sHi60VzjA@mail.gmail.com>
	<315D9F9A-E3F6-45B9-848A-27465272C4DB@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q2fc_swLG7HVjzbMc+rReWmb=zUYyh2ob90UUJj6bjR_Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<4862E4BD-048E-4DF8-AE09-8E0CF3B90FD4@grimmaudio.com>
	<56D89A72.6030109@digido.com>
	<54E38EBD-79AC-4120-A26C-44AD9C449300@grimmaudio.com>
	<06ed9fb8-f95d-a0c4-e07d-7c79d2f5116e@digido.com>
Message-ID: <69446CD3-7A95-479F-8A61-4A914D42F063@mac.com>

http://www.iphonehacks.com/2016/05/apple-music-isnt-deleting-music-libraries.html <http://www.iphonehacks.com/2016/05/apple-music-isnt-deleting-music-libraries.html>

I think this article explains it pretty well.  It isn?t as horrible as the blog describes, but it is still taking way too much control for me to ever want to use their service.

BTW, Tidal has 300 albums with MQA so with an MQA converter you can hear streaming 96kHz or even 352.8kHz music!
MQA is really revolutionary.

Best,
Bob L.



On 5/6/16 5:01 PM, Grimm | Eelco wrote:
Dear friends,

If this story is true it is unimaginably horrific. 

https://blog.vellumatlanta.com/2016/05/04/apple-stole-my-music-no-seriously/ <https://blog.vellumatlanta.com/2016/05/04/apple-stole-my-music-no-seriously/>

Can anyone please tell me it is not true?

Cheers,
Eelco

_______________________________________________
MLA mailing list
MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl <http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl>

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From thomas at lund.one  Sat May  7 20:39:04 2016
From: thomas at lund.one (Thomas Lund)
Date: Sat, 7 May 2016 20:39:04 +0200
Subject: [MLA] Apple Music horror story
In-Reply-To: <69446CD3-7A95-479F-8A61-4A914D42F063@mac.com>
References: <9225A3CC-C8F8-42D8-B374-4EC16BC40DD7@mac.com>
	<E4EF4A38-136A-4639-A563-6071A653F160@lund.one>
	<5C417773-523F-47C0-A822-368B9039ABAD@grimmaudio.com>
	<11923D5E-E892-4518-B911-8F9980B8930A@lund.one>
	<41788696-07CD-4F56-8BFE-CF223D34A6EC@grimmaudio.com>
	<79A9406C-AF50-4E8B-9A94-C927CB850BB9@lund.one>
	<CALw1_Q0zBx+N+pZEkbfTNDhhAfQyL58oQEcJZUeFmfA7zOE9gQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1BBD5754-3930-4AB8-BF65-6F35045D0105@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q1ysD4rvxWk-ZLscsC3n_GcBqMi5uWk2-D5KSqq5kbuPQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<7CA06E42-EC6F-4FC2-8D9F-FF2B0BEA218A@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q39BHQX0_WPeq-DFC01tvY0pw3=efg5hk0hmFtmYyy9dg@mail.gmail.com>
	<56D7011F.7090005@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q17k-78_4wBqjT+FR9MbZG3Q5jYzmOnmoyR8sHi60VzjA@mail.gmail.com>
	<315D9F9A-E3F6-45B9-848A-27465272C4DB@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q2fc_swLG7HVjzbMc+rReWmb=zUYyh2ob90UUJj6bjR_Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<4862E4BD-048E-4DF8-AE09-8E0CF3B90FD4@grimmaudio.com>
	<56D89A72.6030109@digido.com>
	<54E38EBD-79AC-4120-A26C-44AD9C449300@grimmaudio.com> <06ed9fb8-f9
	5d-a0c4-e07d-7c79d2f5116e@digido.com>
	<69446CD3-7A95-479F-8A61-4A914D42F063@mac.com>
Message-ID: <BAAC7455-B634-4085-9C85-C36CAEC83C3D@lund.one>

Hi Bob,

This casual treatment of tracks fits with what I'm seeing in iTunes. One has to actively disable cloud replacement time after time so iTunes doesn?t steal your known-good tracks. From Tidal I?ve heard how record companies require them to carry only the newest (crappiest) version of a track, and make sure originals aren?t available.

Compared to such demolishment, I?m afraid MQA is a sheer marketing detail which is bound to disappoint consumers just like the myriad of previous attempts at promising ?hidef". 24 bit, 16 bit, 14 bit, 12 bit resolution: Doesn?t matter. Dither or not: Doesn?t matter. Sample rate DSD, 192k, 96, 48, 44.1k: Doesn?t matter. Lossless, 320k, 256k, 128k: Doesn?t matter. The version of a track/squashing is what generally matters.

cheers,
Thomas


> On 07/05/2016, at 00.20, Robert Ludwig <gatewaybob at mac.com> wrote:
> 
> http://www.iphonehacks.com/2016/05/apple-music-isnt-deleting-music-libraries.html <http://www.iphonehacks.com/2016/05/apple-music-isnt-deleting-music-libraries.html>
> 
> I think this article explains it pretty well.  It isn?t as horrible as the blog describes, but it is still taking way too much control for me to ever want to use their service.
> 
> BTW, Tidal has 300 albums with MQA so with an MQA converter you can hear streaming 96kHz or even 352.8kHz music!
> MQA is really revolutionary.
> 
> Best,
> Bob L.
> 
> 
> 
> On 5/6/16 5:01 PM, Grimm | Eelco wrote:
> Dear friends,
> 
> If this story is true it is unimaginably horrific. 
> 
> https://blog.vellumatlanta.com/2016/05/04/apple-stole-my-music-no-seriously/ <https://blog.vellumatlanta.com/2016/05/04/apple-stole-my-music-no-seriously/>
> 
> Can anyone please tell me it is not true?
> 
> Cheers,
> Eelco
> 
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl <http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl>
> 
> -- 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl

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From bobkatz at digido.com  Sun May  8 15:27:57 2016
From: bobkatz at digido.com (Bob Katz)
Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 09:27:57 -0400
Subject: [MLA] Apple Music horror story
In-Reply-To: <BAAC7455-B634-4085-9C85-C36CAEC83C3D@lund.one>
References: <9225A3CC-C8F8-42D8-B374-4EC16BC40DD7@mac.com>
	<41788696-07CD-4F56-8BFE-CF223D34A6EC@grimmaudio.com>
	<79A9406C-AF50-4E8B-9A94-C927CB850BB9@lund.one>
	<CALw1_Q0zBx+N+pZEkbfTNDhhAfQyL58oQEcJZUeFmfA7zOE9gQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1BBD5754-3930-4AB8-BF65-6F35045D0105@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q1ysD4rvxWk-ZLscsC3n_GcBqMi5uWk2-D5KSqq5kbuPQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<7CA06E42-EC6F-4FC2-8D9F-FF2B0BEA218A@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q39BHQX0_WPeq-DFC01tvY0pw3=efg5hk0hmFtmYyy9dg@mail.gmail.com>
	<56D7011F.7090005@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q17k-78_4wBqjT+FR9MbZG3Q5jYzmOnmoyR8sHi60VzjA@mail.gmail.com>
	<315D9F9A-E3F6-45B9-848A-27465272C4DB@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q2fc_swLG7HVjzbMc+rReWmb=zUYyh2ob90UUJj6bjR_Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<4862E4BD-048E-4DF8-AE09-8E0CF3B90FD4@grimmaudio.com>
	<56D89A72.6030109@digido.com>
	<54E38EBD-79AC-4120-A26C-44AD9C449300@grimmaudio.com> <06ed9fb8-f9
	5d-a0c4-e07d-7c79d2f5116e@digido.com>
	<69446CD3-7A95-479F-8A61-4A914D42F063@mac.com>
	<BAAC7455-B634-4085-9C85-C36CAEC83C3D@lund.one>
Message-ID: <f428afd2-cd0e-f588-5404-30088ad65903@digido.com>

Guys:


It's a good thing I buy my music either on CD or from HD tracks or 
similar vendors. I only buy the AAC from the iTunes store when one of my 
clients wants me to reference a CD that I don't have and I have to 
listen to it "now". If then I like that music, then I go out and buy it, 
usually on CD. Amazon has become my major vendor, I pity the brick and 
mortar stores, though Best Buy seems to be hanging on, they don't have 
the CD collection I can get online from Amazon. I can then transfer the 
CD into iTunes and use on my iPhone if I like.

For my highest-sonic-quality personal entertainment on my iPhone I use 
an incredible app called HFPlayer from Onkyo..... in conjunction with an 
Oppo DAC that connects via Lightning directly to the iPhone and plays 
any high res. flac files I have on the iPhone up to 384 kHz/24 bit (and 
also plays DSD directly into the ESS Sabre DAC in the Oppo DAC).... It 
beats the crap out of the Astel and Kearn stuff that is so unreliable 
and uber-expensive.

Bob L., I tried the Astel and Kearn player and got it to crash in 15 
minutes, three times before I called it flakey. And their communication 
with their dealers and reps is exremely shakey. I do not like this 
company. If they wanted to make a dependable music player, why did they 
pick the Android operating system?

Also, sorry, Neil Young, this Oppo/iPhone combination beats the Pono 
because I can also take phone calls  :-(. If I'm jogging or don't want 
to carry the DAC, the HF Player will downsample the high res material so 
it will work out of the iPhone's regular headphone jack.

Tip: the Oppo PM-3 headphones are killers! Maybe the most accurate and 
impacting headphones you can get and carry with you to play music.

If you want to salivate about the best portable playback on earth, in my 
opinion, read my review of the Oppo pieces and the HF plyaer: visit 
http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/katzs-corner-episode-11-oppo-explosion#RiXt3ToxveQ4BMf5.97 
These PM-3 headphones have bass that goes down to the center of the 
earth, are extremely accurate and tonally neutral....  With a little of 
the 64-bit EQ in the HF-player you can get even more accurate 
playback.... and the Oppo DAC/headphone amp is clean and punchy and 
open....

I have tons of high res flacs that fit in a 64 GB iPhone. If Apple lost 
for me the purchased AAC music that I have from the iTunes store I'd be 
pissed, but not that pissed because I just don't have that much money 
invested in AAC material I bought from the iTunes store. It seems to me 
that music must be in the iPhone backup that's on my Mac, though, isn't 
it????  I'm only semi-attached to the cloud. I use icloud for Notes, 
Calendar, etc., but not for music (I think). I share my iTunes library 
with a few OSX computers.... maybe that's through iCloud?  Yuk....


Bob K.


On 5/7/16 2:39 PM, Thomas Lund wrote:
> Hi Bob,
>
> This casual treatment of tracks fits with what I'm seeing in iTunes. 
> One has to actively disable cloud replacement time after time so 
> iTunes doesn?t steal your known-good tracks. From Tidal I?ve heard how 
> record companies require them to carry only the newest (crappiest) 
> version of a track, and make sure originals aren?t available.
>
> Compared to such demolishment, I?m afraid MQA is a sheer marketing 
> detail which is bound to disappoint consumers just like the myriad of 
> previous attempts at promising ?hidef". 24 bit, 16 bit, 14 bit, 12 bit 
> resolution: Doesn?t matter. Dither or not: Doesn?t matter. Sample rate 
> DSD, 192k, 96, 48, 44.1k: Doesn?t matter. Lossless, 320k, 256k, 128k: 
> Doesn?t matter. The version of a track/squashing is what generally 
> matters.
>
> cheers,
> Thomas
>
>
>> On 07/05/2016, at 00.20, Robert Ludwig <gatewaybob at mac.com 
>> <mailto:gatewaybob at mac.com>> wrote:
>>
>> http://www.iphonehacks.com/2016/05/apple-music-isnt-deleting-music-libraries.html
>>
>> I think this article explains it pretty well.  It isn?t as horrible 
>> as the blog describes, but it is still taking _way_ too much control 
>> for me to ever want to use their service.
>>
>> BTW, Tidal has 300 albums with MQA so with an MQA converter you can 
>> hear streaming 96kHz or even 352.8kHz music!
>> MQA is really revolutionary.
>>
>> Best,
>> Bob L.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 5/6/16 5:01 PM, Grimm | Eelco wrote:
>> Dear friends,
>>
>> If this story is true it is unimaginably horrific.
>>
>> https://blog.vellumatlanta.com/2016/05/04/apple-stole-my-music-no-seriously/
>>
>> Can anyone please tell me it is not true?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Eelco
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>
>> -- 
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>

-- 

If you want good sound on your album, come to Bob Katz 407-831-0233 
DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO Author: *Mastering Audio *Digital Domain 
Website <http://www.digido.com/> No trees were killed in the sending of 
this message. However a large number of electrons were terribly 
inconvenienced.*Please excuse the weird typing - this message dictated 
by microphone. Contact me by regular email. *

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From ian at mastering-media.co.uk  Mon May  9 00:20:56 2016
From: ian at mastering-media.co.uk (Ian Shepherd)
Date: Sun, 8 May 2016 23:20:56 +0100
Subject: [MLA] Apple Music horror story
In-Reply-To: <f428afd2-cd0e-f588-5404-30088ad65903@digido.com>
References: <9225A3CC-C8F8-42D8-B374-4EC16BC40DD7@mac.com>
	<41788696-07CD-4F56-8BFE-CF223D34A6EC@grimmaudio.com>
	<79A9406C-AF50-4E8B-9A94-C927CB850BB9@lund.one>
	<CALw1_Q0zBx+N+pZEkbfTNDhhAfQyL58oQEcJZUeFmfA7zOE9gQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1BBD5754-3930-4AB8-BF65-6F35045D0105@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q1ysD4rvxWk-ZLscsC3n_GcBqMi5uWk2-D5KSqq5kbuPQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<7CA06E42-EC6F-4FC2-8D9F-FF2B0BEA218A@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q39BHQX0_WPeq-DFC01tvY0pw3=efg5hk0hmFtmYyy9dg@mail.gmail.com>
	<56D7011F.7090005@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q17k-78_4wBqjT+FR9MbZG3Q5jYzmOnmoyR8sHi60VzjA@mail.gmail.com>
	<315D9F9A-E3F6-45B9-848A-27465272C4DB@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q2fc_swLG7HVjzbMc+rReWmb=zUYyh2ob90UUJj6bjR_Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<4862E4BD-048E-4DF8-AE09-8E0CF3B90FD4@grimmaudio.com>
	<56D89A72.6030109@digido.com>
	<54E38EBD-79AC-4120-A26C-44AD9C449300@grimmaudio.com> <06ed9fb8-f9
	5d-a0c4-e07d-7c79d2f5116e@digido.com>
	<69446CD3-7A95-479F-8A61-4A914D42F063@mac.com>
	<BAAC7455-B634-4085-9C85-C36CAEC83C3D@lund.one>
	<f428afd2-cd0e-f588-5404-30088ad65903@digido.com>
Message-ID: <534D81B0-C364-4A02-AC8D-90B40B2BD3F1@mastering-media.co.uk>


Bob L,

Can you recommend a release that really highlights the benefits of MQA ? Is there a way to tell which files on TIDAL are encoded with MQA ? And is there a converter you?d recommend ? 

Although I?m afraid Thomas may well be right, I?m curious to give it a try.

Ian




> On 8 May 2016, at 14:27, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com> wrote:
> 
> Guys: 
> 
> It's a good thing I buy my music either on CD or from HD tracks or similar vendors. I only buy the AAC from the iTunes store when one of my clients wants me to reference a CD that I don't have and I have to listen to it "now". If then I like that music, then I go out and buy it, usually on CD. Amazon has become my major vendor, I pity the brick and mortar stores, though Best Buy seems to be hanging on, they don't have the CD collection I can get online from Amazon. I can then transfer the CD into iTunes and use on my iPhone if I like. 
> For my highest-sonic-quality personal entertainment on my iPhone I use an incredible app called HFPlayer from Onkyo..... in conjunction with an Oppo DAC that connects via Lightning directly to the iPhone and plays any high res. flac files I have on the iPhone up to 384 kHz/24 bit (and also plays DSD directly into the ESS Sabre DAC in the Oppo DAC).... It beats the crap out of the Astel and Kearn stuff that is so unreliable and uber-expensive. 
> Bob L., I tried the Astel and Kearn player and got it to crash in 15 minutes, three times before I called it flakey. And their communication with their dealers and reps is exremely shakey. I do not like this company. If they wanted to make a dependable music player, why did they pick the Android operating system?
> Also, sorry, Neil Young, this Oppo/iPhone combination beats the Pono because I can also take phone calls  :-(. If I'm jogging or don't want to carry the DAC, the HF Player will downsample the high res material so it will work out of the iPhone's regular headphone jack. 
> Tip: the Oppo PM-3 headphones are killers! Maybe the most accurate and impacting headphones you can get and carry with you to play music. 
> If you want to salivate about the best portable playback on earth, in my opinion, read my review of the Oppo pieces and the HF plyaer: visit http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/katzs-corner-episode-11-oppo-explosion#RiXt3ToxveQ4BMf5.97 <http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/katzs-corner-episode-11-oppo-explosion#RiXt3ToxveQ4BMf5.97>       These PM-3 headphones have bass that goes down to the center of the earth, are extremely accurate and tonally neutral....  With a little of the 64-bit EQ in the HF-player you can get even more accurate playback.... and the Oppo DAC/headphone amp is clean and punchy and open....  
> I have tons of high res flacs that fit in a 64 GB iPhone. If Apple lost for me the purchased AAC music that I have from the iTunes store I'd be pissed, but not that pissed because I just don't have that much money invested in AAC material I bought from the iTunes store. It seems to me that music must be in the iPhone backup that's on my Mac, though, isn't it????  I'm only semi-attached to the cloud. I use icloud for Notes, Calendar, etc., but not for music (I think). I share my iTunes library with a few OSX computers.... maybe that's through iCloud?  Yuk....
> 
> 
> Bob K.
> 
> 
> On 5/7/16 2:39 PM, Thomas Lund wrote:
>> Hi Bob,
>> 
>> This casual treatment of tracks fits with what I'm seeing in iTunes. One has to actively disable cloud replacement time after time so iTunes doesn?t steal your known-good tracks. From Tidal I?ve heard how record companies require them to carry only the newest (crappiest) version of a track, and make sure originals aren?t available.
>> 
>> Compared to such demolishment, I?m afraid MQA is a sheer marketing detail which is bound to disappoint consumers just like the myriad of previous attempts at promising ?hidef". 24 bit, 16 bit, 14 bit, 12 bit resolution: Doesn?t matter. Dither or not: Doesn?t matter. Sample rate DSD, 192k, 96, 48, 44.1k: Doesn?t matter. Lossless, 320k, 256k, 128k: Doesn?t matter. The version of a track/squashing is what generally matters.
>> 
>> cheers,
>> Thomas
>> 
>> 
>>> On 07/05/2016, at 00.20, Robert Ludwig < <mailto:gatewaybob at mac.com>gatewaybob at mac.com <mailto:gatewaybob at mac.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> http://www.iphonehacks.com/2016/05/apple-music-isnt-deleting-music-libraries.html <http://www.iphonehacks.com/2016/05/apple-music-isnt-deleting-music-libraries.html>
>>> 
>>> I think this article explains it pretty well.  It isn?t as horrible as the blog describes, but it is still taking way too much control for me to ever want to use their service.
>>> 
>>> BTW, Tidal has 300 albums with MQA so with an MQA converter you can hear streaming 96kHz or even 352.8kHz music!
>>> MQA is really revolutionary.
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> Bob L.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 5/6/16 5:01 PM, Grimm | Eelco wrote:
>>> Dear friends,
>>> 
>>> If this story is true it is unimaginably horrific. 
>>> 
>>> https://blog.vellumatlanta.com/2016/05/04/apple-stole-my-music-no-seriously/ <https://blog.vellumatlanta.com/2016/05/04/apple-stole-my-music-no-seriously/>
>>> 
>>> Can anyone please tell me it is not true?
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Eelco
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> MLA mailing list
>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl <http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl>
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> MLA mailing list
>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl <http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl>
>> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> If you want good sound on your album, come to
> Bob Katz 407-831-0233 DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
> Author: Mastering Audio              
> Digital Domain Website <http://www.digido.com/>
> 
> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
> Please excuse the weird typing - this message dictated by microphone. Contact me by regular email. 
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl

***
Ian Shepherd
Mastering Media Ltd <http://mastering-media.co.uk/> - Audio Mastering, Blu-ray and DVD Excellence
http://twitter.com/ianshepherd <http://twitter.com/ianshepherd>

Mastering Media Ltd,
Kemp House, 152 City Road, London, EC1V 2NX
Registered in England and Wales 
Company No. 073500450

Tel. +44(0)1487 842498

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From gatewaybob at mac.com  Mon May  9 17:24:54 2016
From: gatewaybob at mac.com (Robert Ludwig)
Date: Mon, 09 May 2016 11:24:54 -0400
Subject: [MLA] MQA
In-Reply-To: <534D81B0-C364-4A02-AC8D-90B40B2BD3F1@mastering-media.co.uk>
References: <9225A3CC-C8F8-42D8-B374-4EC16BC40DD7@mac.com>
	<41788696-07CD-4F56-8BFE-CF223D34A6EC@grimmaudio.com>
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	<CALw1_Q0zBx+N+pZEkbfTNDhhAfQyL58oQEcJZUeFmfA7zOE9gQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1BBD5754-3930-4AB8-BF65-6F35045D0105@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q1ysD4rvxWk-ZLscsC3n_GcBqMi5uWk2-D5KSqq5kbuPQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<7CA06E42-EC6F-4FC2-8D9F-FF2B0BEA218A@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q39BHQX0_WPeq-DFC01tvY0pw3=efg5hk0hmFtmYyy9dg@mail.gmail.com>
	<56D7011F.7090005@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q17k-78_4wBqjT+FR9MbZG3Q5jYzmOnmoyR8sHi60VzjA@mail.gmail.com>
	<315D9F9A-E3F6-45B9-848A-27465272C4DB@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q2fc_swLG7HVjzbMc+rReWmb=zUYyh2ob90UUJj6bjR_Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<4862E4BD-048E-4DF8-AE09-8E0CF3B90FD4@grimmaudio.com>
	<56D89A72.6030109@digido.com>
	<54E38EBD-79AC-4120-A26C-44AD9C449300@grimmaudio.com>
	<"06ed9fb8-f9 5d-a0c4-e07d-7c79d2f5116e"@digido.com>
	<69446CD3-7A95-479F-8A61-4A914D42F063@mac.com>
	<BAAC7455-B634-4085-9C85-C36CAEC83C3D@lund.one>
	<f428afd2-cd0e-f588-5404-30088ad65903@digido.com>
	<534D81B0-C364-4A02-AC8D-90B40B2BD3F1@mastering-media.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4B456A46-513F-4BA1-BEFF-948CE46D9464@mac.com>

Hi Ian,

Just to reiterate, Thomas is 100% right in my opinion, needlessly crushing music is by FAR the #1 item that needs to be fixed for better sound, nothing else matters when you start with unsatisfying music.  However, assuming you?ve got great sounding music, then all the rest comes in to play!

The TIDAL MQA material isn?t officially launched yet, but Bob Stuart said there are people who know the URL that would get one to the beta site.

I don?t know how much you know about MQA, but it is several ?things? under one MQA name.  It is an audio de-blur algorithm, it is a ?folding? or data compressing algorithm folding 384 kHz or less into either a 44.1kHz or 48kHz/24 bit file (which can be streamed at 1 - 1.3MB/sec) and it is a digital copy protection scheme where theoretically you could make a one-off DAC that is coded to your converter and only people with the same converter could hear the music!

As far as MQA examples go, without an MQA DAC you can?t hear the whole thing, but one could hear some of the results of the de-blur process using a normal converter.  I?m trying to see if I can find you a before and after example.  I?ll get back to you.

In the mean time, you can check out Morten Lindberg's 2L label ?test bench?.  Even though he is recording at 352.8kHz, Morten still finds the MQA to create a superior sound.
It?s a mind blower to see a 44.1kHz/24 bit file feed the MQA converter and the resulting FFT goes right out to 176.4kHz!!

http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html? <http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html?>

Best,
Bob



> On May 8, 2016, at 6:20 PM, Ian Shepherd <ian at mastering-media.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> 
> Bob L,
> 
> Can you recommend a release that really highlights the benefits of MQA ? Is there a way to tell which files on TIDAL are encoded with MQA ? And is there a converter you?d recommend ? 
> 
> Although I?m afraid Thomas may well be right, I?m curious to give it a try.
> 
> Ian
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On 8 May 2016, at 14:27, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com <mailto:bobkatz at digido.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Guys: 
>> 
>> It's a good thing I buy my music either on CD or from HD tracks or similar vendors. I only buy the AAC from the iTunes store when one of my clients wants me to reference a CD that I don't have and I have to listen to it "now". If then I like that music, then I go out and buy it, usually on CD. Amazon has become my major vendor, I pity the brick and mortar stores, though Best Buy seems to be hanging on, they don't have the CD collection I can get online from Amazon. I can then transfer the CD into iTunes and use on my iPhone if I like. 
>> For my highest-sonic-quality personal entertainment on my iPhone I use an incredible app called HFPlayer from Onkyo..... in conjunction with an Oppo DAC that connects via Lightning directly to the iPhone and plays any high res. flac files I have on the iPhone up to 384 kHz/24 bit (and also plays DSD directly into the ESS Sabre DAC in the Oppo DAC).... It beats the crap out of the Astel and Kearn stuff that is so unreliable and uber-expensive. 
>> Bob L., I tried the Astel and Kearn player and got it to crash in 15 minutes, three times before I called it flakey. And their communication with their dealers and reps is exremely shakey. I do not like this company. If they wanted to make a dependable music player, why did they pick the Android operating system?
>> Also, sorry, Neil Young, this Oppo/iPhone combination beats the Pono because I can also take phone calls  :-(. If I'm jogging or don't want to carry the DAC, the HF Player will downsample the high res material so it will work out of the iPhone's regular headphone jack. 
>> Tip: the Oppo PM-3 headphones are killers! Maybe the most accurate and impacting headphones you can get and carry with you to play music. 
>> If you want to salivate about the best portable playback on earth, in my opinion, read my review of the Oppo pieces and the HF plyaer: visit http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/katzs-corner-episode-11-oppo-explosion#RiXt3ToxveQ4BMf5.97 <http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/katzs-corner-episode-11-oppo-explosion#RiXt3ToxveQ4BMf5.97>       These PM-3 headphones have bass that goes down to the center of the earth, are extremely accurate and tonally neutral....  With a little of the 64-bit EQ in the HF-player you can get even more accurate playback.... and the Oppo DAC/headphone amp is clean and punchy and open....  
>> I have tons of high res flacs that fit in a 64 GB iPhone. If Apple lost for me the purchased AAC music that I have from the iTunes store I'd be pissed, but not that pissed because I just don't have that much money invested in AAC material I bought from the iTunes store. It seems to me that music must be in the iPhone backup that's on my Mac, though, isn't it????  I'm only semi-attached to the cloud. I use icloud for Notes, Calendar, etc., but not for music (I think). I share my iTunes library with a few OSX computers.... maybe that's through iCloud?  Yuk....
>> 
>> 
>> Bob K.
>> 
>> 
>> On 5/7/16 2:39 PM, Thomas Lund wrote:
>>> Hi Bob,
>>> 
>>> This casual treatment of tracks fits with what I'm seeing in iTunes. One has to actively disable cloud replacement time after time so iTunes doesn?t steal your known-good tracks. From Tidal I?ve heard how record companies require them to carry only the newest (crappiest) version of a track, and make sure originals aren?t available.
>>> 
>>> Compared to such demolishment, I?m afraid MQA is a sheer marketing detail which is bound to disappoint consumers just like the myriad of previous attempts at promising ?hidef". 24 bit, 16 bit, 14 bit, 12 bit resolution: Doesn?t matter. Dither or not: Doesn?t matter. Sample rate DSD, 192k, 96, 48, 44.1k: Doesn?t matter. Lossless, 320k, 256k, 128k: Doesn?t matter. The version of a track/squashing is what generally matters.
>>> 
>>> cheers,
>>> Thomas
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 07/05/2016, at 00.20, Robert Ludwig < <mailto:gatewaybob at mac.com>gatewaybob at mac.com <mailto:gatewaybob at mac.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.iphonehacks.com/2016/05/apple-music-isnt-deleting-music-libraries.html <http://www.iphonehacks.com/2016/05/apple-music-isnt-deleting-music-libraries.html>
>>>> 
>>>> I think this article explains it pretty well.  It isn?t as horrible as the blog describes, but it is still taking way too much control for me to ever want to use their service.
>>>> 
>>>> BTW, Tidal has 300 albums with MQA so with an MQA converter you can hear streaming 96kHz or even 352.8kHz music!
>>>> MQA is really revolutionary.
>>>> 
>>>> Best,
>>>> Bob L.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 5/6/16 5:01 PM, Grimm | Eelco wrote:
>>>> Dear friends,
>>>> 
>>>> If this story is true it is unimaginably horrific. 
>>>> 
>>>> https://blog.vellumatlanta.com/2016/05/04/apple-stole-my-music-no-seriously/ <https://blog.vellumatlanta.com/2016/05/04/apple-stole-my-music-no-seriously/>
>>>> 
>>>> Can anyone please tell me it is not true?
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Eelco
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl <http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl>
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl <http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl>
>>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> 
>> If you want good sound on your album, come to
>> Bob Katz 407-831-0233 DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
>> Author: Mastering Audio              
>> Digital Domain Website <http://www.digido.com/>
>> 
>> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
>> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>> Please excuse the weird typing - this message dictated by microphone. Contact me by regular email. 
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
> 
> ***
> Ian Shepherd
> Mastering Media Ltd <http://mastering-media.co.uk/> - Audio Mastering, Blu-ray and DVD Excellence
> http://twitter.com/ianshepherd <http://twitter.com/ianshepherd>
> 
> Mastering Media Ltd,
> Kemp House, 152 City Road, London, EC1V 2NX
> Registered in England and Wales 
> Company No. 073500450
> 
> Tel. +44(0)1487 842498
> 
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl

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From bobkatz at digido.com  Mon May  9 19:04:27 2016
From: bobkatz at digido.com (Bob Katz)
Date: Mon, 9 May 2016 13:04:27 -0400
Subject: [MLA] MQA
In-Reply-To: <4B456A46-513F-4BA1-BEFF-948CE46D9464@mac.com>
References: <9225A3CC-C8F8-42D8-B374-4EC16BC40DD7@mac.com>
	<1BBD5754-3930-4AB8-BF65-6F35045D0105@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q1ysD4rvxWk-ZLscsC3n_GcBqMi5uWk2-D5KSqq5kbuPQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<7CA06E42-EC6F-4FC2-8D9F-FF2B0BEA218A@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q39BHQX0_WPeq-DFC01tvY0pw3=efg5hk0hmFtmYyy9dg@mail.gmail.com>
	<56D7011F.7090005@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q17k-78_4wBqjT+FR9MbZG3Q5jYzmOnmoyR8sHi60VzjA@mail.gmail.com>
	<315D9F9A-E3F6-45B9-848A-27465272C4DB@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q2fc_swLG7HVjzbMc+rReWmb=zUYyh2ob90UUJj6bjR_Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<4862E4BD-048E-4DF8-AE09-8E0CF3B90FD4@grimmaudio.com>
	<56D89A72.6030109@digido.com>
	<54E38EBD-79AC-4120-A26C-44AD9C449300@grimmaudio.com> <"06ed9fb8-f9
	5d-a0c4-e07d-7c79d2f5116e"@digido.com>
	<69446CD3-7A95-479F-8A61-4A914D42F063@mac.com>
	<BAAC7455-B634-4085-9C85-C36CAEC83C3D@lund.one>
	<f428afd2-cd0e-f588-5404-30088ad65903@digido.com>
	<534D81B0-C364-4A02-AC8D-90B40B2BD3F1@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<4B456A46-513F-4BA1-BEFF-948CE46D9464@mac.com>
Message-ID: <c398436c-1dc1-d068-5240-51e89711238b@digido.com>

Dear Bob L. I have written to Bob Stuart but not gotten any response 
yet. Of course I want to audition MQA, but I'm using a digital 
crossover, and for stereo I have 4 channels of DAC so I need a digital 
MQA "decoder". Any thoughts on that?



Bob K.




On 5/9/16 11:24 AM, Robert Ludwig wrote:
> Hi Ian,
>
> Just to reiterate, Thomas is 100% right in my opinion, needlessly 
> crushing music is by FAR the #1 item that needs to be fixed for better 
> sound, nothing else matters when you start with unsatisfying music. 
>  However, assuming you?ve got great sounding music, then all the rest 
> comes in to play!
>
> The TIDAL MQA material isn?t officially launched yet, but Bob Stuart 
> said there are people who know the URL that would get one to the beta 
> site.
>
> I don?t know how much you know about MQA, but it is several ?things? 
> under one MQA name.  It is an audio de-blur algorithm, it is a 
> ?folding? or _data_ compressing algorithm folding 384 kHz or less into 
> either a 44.1kHz or 48kHz/24 bit file (which can be streamed at 1 - 
> 1.3MB/sec) and it is a digital copy protection scheme where 
> theoretically you could make a one-off DAC that is coded to your 
> converter and only people with the same converter could hear the music!
>
> As far as MQA examples go, without an MQA DAC you can?t hear the whole 
> thing, but one could hear some of the results of the de-blur process 
> using a normal converter.  I?m trying to see if I can find you a 
> before and after example.  I?ll get back to you.
>
> In the mean time, you can check out Morten Lindberg's 2L label ?test 
> bench?.  Even though he is recording at 352.8kHz, Morten still finds 
> the MQA to create a superior sound.
> It?s a mind blower to see a 44.1kHz/24 bit file feed the MQA converter 
> and the resulting FFT goes right out to 176.4kHz!!
>
> http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html?
>
> Best,
> Bob
>
>
>
>> On May 8, 2016, at 6:20 PM, Ian Shepherd <ian at mastering-media.co.uk 
>> <mailto:ian at mastering-media.co.uk>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Bob L,
>>
>> Can you recommend a release that really highlights the benefits of 
>> MQA ? Is there a way to tell which files on TIDAL are encoded with 
>> MQA ? And is there a converter you?d recommend ?
>>
>> Although I?m afraid Thomas may well be right, I?m curious to give it 
>> a try.
>>
>> Ian
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 8 May 2016, at 14:27, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com 
>>> <mailto:bobkatz at digido.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Guys:
>>>
>>>
>>> It's a good thing I buy my music either on CD or from HD tracks or 
>>> similar vendors. I only buy the AAC from the iTunes store when one 
>>> of my clients wants me to reference a CD that I don't have and I 
>>> have to listen to it "now". If then I like that music, then I go out 
>>> and buy it, usually on CD. Amazon has become my major vendor, I pity 
>>> the brick and mortar stores, though Best Buy seems to be hanging on, 
>>> they don't have the CD collection I can get online from Amazon. I 
>>> can then transfer the CD into iTunes and use on my iPhone if I like.
>>>
>>> For my highest-sonic-quality personal entertainment on my iPhone I 
>>> use an incredible app called HFPlayer from Onkyo..... in conjunction 
>>> with an Oppo DAC that connects via Lightning directly to the iPhone 
>>> and plays any high res. flac files I have on the iPhone up to 384 
>>> kHz/24 bit (and also plays DSD directly into the ESS Sabre DAC in 
>>> the Oppo DAC).... It beats the crap out of the Astel and Kearn stuff 
>>> that is so unreliable and uber-expensive.
>>>
>>> Bob L., I tried the Astel and Kearn player and got it to crash in 15 
>>> minutes, three times before I called it flakey. And their 
>>> communication with their dealers and reps is exremely shakey. I do 
>>> not like this company. If they wanted to make a dependable music 
>>> player, why did they pick the Android operating system?
>>>
>>> Also, sorry, Neil Young, this Oppo/iPhone combination beats the Pono 
>>> because I can also take phone calls :-(. If I'm jogging or don't 
>>> want to carry the DAC, the HF Player will downsample the high res 
>>> material so it will work out of the iPhone's regular headphone jack.
>>>
>>> Tip: the Oppo PM-3 headphones are killers! Maybe the most accurate 
>>> and impacting headphones you can get and carry with you to play music.
>>>
>>> If you want to salivate about the best portable playback on earth, 
>>> in my opinion, read my review of the Oppo pieces and the HF plyaer: 
>>> visit 
>>> http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/katzs-corner-episode-11-oppo-explosion#RiXt3ToxveQ4BMf5.97 
>>> These PM-3 headphones have bass that goes down to the center of the 
>>> earth, are extremely accurate and tonally neutral....  With a little 
>>> of the 64-bit EQ in the HF-player you can get even more accurate 
>>> playback.... and the Oppo DAC/headphone amp is clean and punchy and 
>>> open....
>>>
>>> I have tons of high res flacs that fit in a 64 GB iPhone. If Apple 
>>> lost for me the purchased AAC music that I have from the iTunes 
>>> store I'd be pissed, but not that pissed because I just don't have 
>>> that much money invested in AAC material I bought from the iTunes 
>>> store. It seems to me that music must be in the iPhone backup that's 
>>> on my Mac, though, isn't it????  I'm only semi-attached to the 
>>> cloud. I use icloud for Notes, Calendar, etc., but not for music (I 
>>> think). I share my iTunes library with a few OSX computers.... maybe 
>>> that's through iCloud?  Yuk....
>>>
>>>
>>> Bob K.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 5/7/16 2:39 PM, Thomas Lund wrote:
>>>> Hi Bob,
>>>>
>>>> This casual treatment of tracks fits with what I'm seeing in 
>>>> iTunes. One has to actively disable cloud replacement time after 
>>>> time so iTunes doesn?t steal your known-good tracks. From Tidal 
>>>> I?ve heard how record companies require them to carry only the 
>>>> newest (crappiest) version of a track, and make sure originals 
>>>> aren?t available.
>>>>
>>>> Compared to such demolishment, I?m afraid MQA is a sheer marketing 
>>>> detail which is bound to disappoint consumers just like the myriad 
>>>> of previous attempts at promising ?hidef". 24 bit, 16 bit, 14 bit, 
>>>> 12 bit resolution: Doesn?t matter. Dither or not: Doesn?t matter. 
>>>> Sample rate DSD, 192k, 96, 48, 44.1k: Doesn?t matter. Lossless, 
>>>> 320k, 256k, 128k: Doesn?t matter. The version of a track/squashing 
>>>> is what generally matters.
>>>>
>>>> cheers,
>>>> Thomas
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 07/05/2016, at 00.20, Robert Ludwig <gatewaybob at mac.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.iphonehacks.com/2016/05/apple-music-isnt-deleting-music-libraries.html
>>>>>
>>>>> I think this article explains it pretty well.  It isn?t as 
>>>>> horrible as the blog describes, but it is still taking _way_ too 
>>>>> much control for me to ever want to use their service.
>>>>>
>>>>> BTW, Tidal has 300 albums with MQA so with an MQA converter you 
>>>>> can hear streaming 96kHz or even 352.8kHz music!
>>>>> MQA is really revolutionary.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Bob L.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 5/6/16 5:01 PM, Grimm | Eelco wrote:
>>>>> Dear friends,
>>>>>
>>>>> If this story is true it is unimaginably horrific.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://blog.vellumatlanta.com/2016/05/04/apple-stole-my-music-no-seriously/
>>>>>
>>>>> Can anyone please tell me it is not true?
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Eelco
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> If you want good sound on your album, come to Bob Katz 407-831-0233 
>>> DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO Author: *Mastering Audio *Digital 
>>> Domain Website <http://www.digido.com/> No trees were killed in the 
>>> sending of this message. However a large number of electrons were 
>>> terribly inconvenienced.*Please excuse the weird typing - this 
>>> message dictated by microphone. Contact me by regular email. *
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> MLA mailing list
>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>
>> ***
>> Ian Shepherd
>> Mastering Media Ltd <http://mastering-media.co.uk/> - Audio 
>> Mastering, Blu-ray and DVD Excellence
>> http://twitter.com/ianshepherd
>>
>> Mastering Media Ltd,
>> Kemp House, 152 City Road, London, EC1V 2NX
>> Registered in England and Wales
>> Company No. 073500450
>>
>> Tel. +44(0)1487 842498
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl

-- 

If you want good sound on your album, come to Bob Katz 407-831-0233 
DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO Author: *Mastering Audio *Digital Domain 
Website <http://www.digido.com/> No trees were killed in the sending of 
this message. However a large number of electrons were terribly 
inconvenienced.*Please excuse the weird typing - this message dictated 
by microphone. Contact me by regular email. *

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From eelco at grimmaudio.com  Wed May 11 00:41:59 2016
From: eelco at grimmaudio.com (Grimm | Eelco)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 00:41:59 +0200
Subject: [MLA] MQA
In-Reply-To: <c398436c-1dc1-d068-5240-51e89711238b@digido.com>
References: <9225A3CC-C8F8-42D8-B374-4EC16BC40DD7@mac.com>
	<1BBD5754-3930-4AB8-BF65-6F35045D0105@grimmaudio.com>
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	<CALw1_Q39BHQX0_WPeq-DFC01tvY0pw3=efg5hk0hmFtmYyy9dg@mail.gmail.com>
	<56D7011F.7090005@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q17k-78_4wBqjT+FR9MbZG3Q5jYzmOnmoyR8sHi60VzjA@mail.gmail.com>
	<315D9F9A-E3F6-45B9-848A-27465272C4DB@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q2fc_swLG7HVjzbMc+rReWmb=zUYyh2ob90UUJj6bjR_Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<4862E4BD-048E-4DF8-AE09-8E0CF3B90FD4@grimmaudio.com>
	<56D89A72.6030109@digido.com>
	<54E38EBD-79AC-4120-A26C-44AD9C449300@grimmaudio.com>
	<"06ed9fb8-f9 5d-a0c4-e07d-7c79d2f5116e"@digido.com>
	<69446CD3-7A95-479F-8A61-4A914D42F063@mac.com>
	<BAAC7455-B634-4085-9C85-C36CAEC83C3D@lund.one>
	<f428afd2-cd0e-f588-5404-30088ad65903@digido.com>
	<534D81B0-C364-4A02-AC8D-90B40B2BD3F1@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<4B456A46-513F-4BA1-BEFF-948CE46D9464@mac.com>
	<c398436c-1dc1-d068-5240-51e89711238b@digido.com>
Message-ID: <6D94BC82-2986-4EEF-B33B-109AE9DDDB4D@grimmaudio.com>

Hi Bob K,

> Dear Bob L. I have written to Bob Stuart but not gotten any response yet. Of course I want to audition MQA, but I'm using a digital crossover, and for stereo I have 4 channels of DAC so I need a digital MQA "decoder". Any thoughts on that?

The Tidal MQA decoder should take care of that. 

I listened to MQA at Alan Silverman's studio last AES. Alan was very enthusiastic, but in my ears MQA was not identical to the original. Compared to a downsampled version you loose some and you gain some. MQA is based on the presumption that high sampling is more important than more bits: the HF info is coded into the bottom 4 bits, which effectively means you have to choose between 48 / 24 versus 384 / 20. 

We compared:
1. Original 96/24 file
2. Saracon downsampled 48/24
3. MQA non-decoded ("48/20")
4. MQA decoded ("96/20")

For me personally #2 came closest to #1. I have to admit I was a bit disappointed, but it also confirmed my experience that with real high quality decimation filters 48 kHz tracks are hard to distinguish from the high sampling original (as a delivery format that is - during production high sampling is a must). But bits do count. Of course my experience could also be effected by MQA's "de-blur" algorithm, which claims to undo the ripple of the original AD converter (or subsequent decimation filters), but I have too little information about it to know what it does exactly and how it 'sounds'.

I'd certainly love to do furter testing on MQA. And just out of curiosity I'd love to compare it to HDCD - which was a similar process, though just with 44/16 packing space, which is obviously worse than 48/24.

All the best,
Eelco

> 
> On 5/9/16 11:24 AM, Robert Ludwig wrote:
>> Hi Ian,
>> 
>> Just to reiterate, Thomas is 100% right in my opinion, needlessly crushing music is by FAR the #1 item that needs to be fixed for better sound, nothing else matters when you start with unsatisfying music.  However, assuming you?ve got great sounding music, then all the rest comes in to play!
>> 
>> The TIDAL MQA material isn?t officially launched yet, but Bob Stuart said there are people who know the URL that would get one to the beta site.
>> 
>> I don?t know how much you know about MQA, but it is several ?things? under one MQA name.  It is an audio de-blur algorithm, it is a ?folding? or data compressing algorithm folding 384 kHz or less into either a 44.1kHz or 48kHz/24 bit file (which can be streamed at 1 - 1.3MB/sec) and it is a digital copy protection scheme where theoretically you could make a one-off DAC that is coded to your converter and only people with the same converter could hear the music!
>> 
>> As far as MQA examples go, without an MQA DAC you can?t hear the whole thing, but one could hear some of the results of the de-blur process using a normal converter.  I?m trying to see if I can find you a before and after example.  I?ll get back to you.
>> 
>> In the mean time, you can check out Morten Lindberg's 2L label ?test bench?.  Even though he is recording at 352.8kHz, Morten still finds the MQA to create a superior sound.
>> It?s a mind blower to see a 44.1kHz/24 bit file feed the MQA converter and the resulting FFT goes right out to 176.4kHz!!
>> 
>> http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html?
>> 
>> Best,
>> Bob
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On May 8, 2016, at 6:20 PM, Ian Shepherd <ian at mastering-media.co.uk> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Bob L,
>>> 
>>> Can you recommend a release that really highlights the benefits of MQA ? Is there a way to tell which files on TIDAL are encoded with MQA ? And is there a converter you?d recommend ? 
>>> 
>>> Although I?m afraid Thomas may well be right, I?m curious to give it a try.
>>> 
>>> Ian
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 8 May 2016, at 14:27, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Guys: 
>>>> 
>>>> It's a good thing I buy my music either on CD or from HD tracks or similar vendors. I only buy the AAC from the iTunes store when one of my clients wants me to reference a CD that I don't have and I have to listen to it "now". If then I like that music, then I go out and buy it, usually on CD. Amazon has become my major vendor, I pity the brick and mortar stores, though Best Buy seems to be hanging on, they don't have the CD collection I can get online from Amazon. I can then transfer the CD into iTunes and use on my iPhone if I like. 
>>>> For my highest-sonic-quality personal entertainment on my iPhone I use an incredible app called HFPlayer from Onkyo..... in conjunction with an Oppo DAC that connects via Lightning directly to the iPhone and plays any high res. flac files I have on the iPhone up to 384 kHz/24 bit (and also plays DSD directly into the ESS Sabre DAC in the Oppo DAC).... It beats the crap out of the Astel and Kearn stuff that is so unreliable and uber-expensive. 
>>>> Bob L., I tried the Astel and Kearn player and got it to crash in 15 minutes, three times before I called it flakey. And their communication with their dealers and reps is exremely shakey. I do not like this company. If they wanted to make a dependable music player, why did they pick the Android operating system?
>>>> Also, sorry, Neil Young, this Oppo/iPhone combination beats the Pono because I can also take phone calls  :-(. If I'm jogging or don't want to carry the DAC, the HF Player will downsample the high res material so it will work out of the iPhone's regular headphone jack. 
>>>> Tip: the Oppo PM-3 headphones are killers! Maybe the most accurate and impacting headphones you can get and carry with you to play music. 
>>>> If you want to salivate about the best portable playback on earth, in my opinion, read my review of the Oppo pieces and the HF plyaer: visit http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/katzs-corner-episode-11-oppo-explosion#RiXt3ToxveQ4BMf5.97       These PM-3 headphones have bass that goes down to the center of the earth, are extremely accurate and tonally neutral....  With a little of the 64-bit EQ in the HF-player you can get even more accurate playback.... and the Oppo DAC/headphone amp is clean and punchy and open....  
>>>> I have tons of high res flacs that fit in a 64 GB iPhone. If Apple lost for me the purchased AAC music that I have from the iTunes store I'd be pissed, but not that pissed because I just don't have that much money invested in AAC material I bought from the iTunes store. It seems to me that music must be in the iPhone backup that's on my Mac, though, isn't it????  I'm only semi-attached to the cloud. I use icloud for Notes, Calendar, etc., but not for music (I think). I share my iTunes library with a few OSX computers.... maybe that's through iCloud?  Yuk....
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Bob K.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 5/7/16 2:39 PM, Thomas Lund wrote:
>>>>> Hi Bob,
>>>>> 
>>>>> This casual treatment of tracks fits with what I'm seeing in iTunes. One has to actively disable cloud replacement time after time so iTunes doesn?t steal your known-good tracks. From Tidal I?ve heard how record companies require them to carry only the newest (crappiest) version of a track, and make sure originals aren?t available.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Compared to such demolishment, I?m afraid MQA is a sheer marketing detail which is bound to disappoint consumers just like the myriad of previous attempts at promising ?hidef". 24 bit, 16 bit, 14 bit, 12 bit resolution: Doesn?t matter. Dither or not: Doesn?t matter. Sample rate DSD, 192k, 96, 48, 44.1k: Doesn?t matter. Lossless, 320k, 256k, 128k: Doesn?t matter. The version of a track/squashing is what generally matters.
>>>>> 
>>>>> cheers,
>>>>> Thomas
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 07/05/2016, at 00.20, Robert Ludwig <gatewaybob at mac.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> http://www.iphonehacks.com/2016/05/apple-music-isnt-deleting-music-libraries.html
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I think this article explains it pretty well.  It isn?t as horrible as the blog describes, but it is still taking way too much control for me to ever want to use their service.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> BTW, Tidal has 300 albums with MQA so with an MQA converter you can hear streaming 96kHz or even 352.8kHz music!
>>>>>> MQA is really revolutionary.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> Bob L.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 5/6/16 5:01 PM, Grimm | Eelco wrote:
>>>>>> Dear friends,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> If this story is true it is unimaginably horrific. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> https://blog.vellumatlanta.com/2016/05/04/apple-stole-my-music-no-seriously/
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Can anyone please tell me it is not true?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Eelco
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> 
>>>> If you want good sound on your album, come to
>>>> Bob Katz 407-831-0233 
>>>> DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
>>>> Author: 
>>>> Mastering Audio              
>>>> Digital Domain Website
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
>>>> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>>>> 
>>>> Please excuse the weird typing - this message dictated by microphone. Contact me by regular email. 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>> 
>>> ***
>>> Ian Shepherd
>>> Mastering Media Ltd - Audio Mastering, Blu-ray and DVD Excellence
>>> http://twitter.com/ianshepherd
>>> 
>>> Mastering Media Ltd,
>>> Kemp House, 152 City Road, London, EC1V 2NX
>>> Registered in England and Wales 
>>> Company No. 073500450
>>> 
>>> Tel. +44(0)1487 842498
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> MLA mailing list
>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> 
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
> 
> -- 
> 
> If you want good sound on your album, come to
> Bob Katz 407-831-0233 
> DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
> Author: 
> Mastering Audio              
> Digital Domain Website
> 
> 
> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
> 
> Please excuse the weird typing - this message dictated by microphone. Contact me by regular email. 
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl



From bobkatz at digido.com  Wed May 11 01:46:35 2016
From: bobkatz at digido.com (Bob Katz)
Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 19:46:35 -0400
Subject: [MLA] MQA
In-Reply-To: <6D94BC82-2986-4EEF-B33B-109AE9DDDB4D@grimmaudio.com>
References: <9225A3CC-C8F8-42D8-B374-4EC16BC40DD7@mac.com>
	<7CA06E42-EC6F-4FC2-8D9F-FF2B0BEA218A@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q39BHQX0_WPeq-DFC01tvY0pw3=efg5hk0hmFtmYyy9dg@mail.gmail.com>
	<56D7011F.7090005@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q17k-78_4wBqjT+FR9MbZG3Q5jYzmOnmoyR8sHi60VzjA@mail.gmail.com>
	<315D9F9A-E3F6-45B9-848A-27465272C4DB@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q2fc_swLG7HVjzbMc+rReWmb=zUYyh2ob90UUJj6bjR_Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<4862E4BD-048E-4DF8-AE09-8E0CF3B90FD4@grimmaudio.com>
	<56D89A72.6030109@digido.com>
	<54E38EBD-79AC-4120-A26C-44AD9C449300@grimmaudio.com> <"06ed9fb8-f9
	5d-a0c4-e07d-7c79d2f5116e"@digido.com>
	<69446CD3-7A95-479F-8A61-4A914D42F063@mac.com>
	<BAAC7455-B634-4085-9C85-C36CAEC83C3D@lund.one>
	<f428afd2-cd0e-f588-5404-30088ad65903@digido.com>
	<534D81B0-C364-4A02-AC8D-90B40B2BD3F1@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<4B456A46-513F-4BA1-BEFF-948CE46D9464@mac.com>
	<c398436c-1dc1-d068-5240-51e89711238b@digido.com>
	<6D94BC82-2986-4EEF-B33B-109AE9DDDB4D@grimmaudio.com>
Message-ID: <a9acec28-20b8-af3b-376b-19e9fc5b2676@digido.com>

Eelco, Yeah. To my experience I can hear a slight degradation after 
dithering a 2496 Down to 2096. It's small but enough to bother me. I'm 
on your side about the sample rate, that the bits are far more 
important. But I'll keep an open mind and try to listen. Right now it's 
very difficult... I wonder if I can get the Tidal decoder.

You did some excellent comparison tests. Did you have an MQA digital 
decoder or just an MQA DAC? Did Alan agree with your conclusions?

Comparing MQA to HDCD is not a good analogy....  MQA is far more 
sophisticated.

Bob


On 5/10/16 6:41 PM, Grimm | Eelco wrote:
> Hi Bob K,
>
>> Dear Bob L. I have written to Bob Stuart but not gotten any response yet. Of course I want to audition MQA, but I'm using a digital crossover, and for stereo I have 4 channels of DAC so I need a digital MQA "decoder". Any thoughts on that?
> The Tidal MQA decoder should take care of that.
>
> I listened to MQA at Alan Silverman's studio last AES. Alan was very enthusiastic, but in my ears MQA was not identical to the original. Compared to a downsampled version you loose some and you gain some. MQA is based on the presumption that high sampling is more important than more bits: the HF info is coded into the bottom 4 bits, which effectively means you have to choose between 48 / 24 versus 384 / 20.
>
> We compared:
> 1. Original 96/24 file
> 2. Saracon downsampled 48/24
> 3. MQA non-decoded ("48/20")
> 4. MQA decoded ("96/20")
>
> For me personally #2 came closest to #1. I have to admit I was a bit disappointed, but it also confirmed my experience that with real high quality decimation filters 48 kHz tracks are hard to distinguish from the high sampling original (as a delivery format that is - during production high sampling is a must). But bits do count. Of course my experience could also be effected by MQA's "de-blur" algorithm, which claims to undo the ripple of the original AD converter (or subsequent decimation filters), but I have too little information about it to know what it does exactly and how it 'sounds'.
>
> I'd certainly love to do furter testing on MQA. And just out of curiosity I'd love to compare it to HDCD - which was a similar process, though just with 44/16 packing space, which is obviously worse than 48/24.
>
> All the best,
> Eelco
>
>> On 5/9/16 11:24 AM, Robert Ludwig wrote:
>>> Hi Ian,
>>>
>>> Just to reiterate, Thomas is 100% right in my opinion, needlessly crushing music is by FAR the #1 item that needs to be fixed for better sound, nothing else matters when you start with unsatisfying music.  However, assuming you?ve got great sounding music, then all the rest comes in to play!
>>>
>>> The TIDAL MQA material isn?t officially launched yet, but Bob Stuart said there are people who know the URL that would get one to the beta site.
>>>
>>> I don?t know how much you know about MQA, but it is several ?things? under one MQA name.  It is an audio de-blur algorithm, it is a ?folding? or data compressing algorithm folding 384 kHz or less into either a 44.1kHz or 48kHz/24 bit file (which can be streamed at 1 - 1.3MB/sec) and it is a digital copy protection scheme where theoretically you could make a one-off DAC that is coded to your converter and only people with the same converter could hear the music!
>>>
>>> As far as MQA examples go, without an MQA DAC you can?t hear the whole thing, but one could hear some of the results of the de-blur process using a normal converter.  I?m trying to see if I can find you a before and after example.  I?ll get back to you.
>>>
>>> In the mean time, you can check out Morten Lindberg's 2L label ?test bench?.  Even though he is recording at 352.8kHz, Morten still finds the MQA to create a superior sound.
>>> It?s a mind blower to see a 44.1kHz/24 bit file feed the MQA converter and the resulting FFT goes right out to 176.4kHz!!
>>>
>>> http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html?
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Bob
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On May 8, 2016, at 6:20 PM, Ian Shepherd <ian at mastering-media.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bob L,
>>>>
>>>> Can you recommend a release that really highlights the benefits of MQA ? Is there a way to tell which files on TIDAL are encoded with MQA ? And is there a converter you?d recommend ?
>>>>
>>>> Although I?m afraid Thomas may well be right, I?m curious to give it a try.
>>>>
>>>> Ian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 8 May 2016, at 14:27, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Guys:
>>>>>
>>>>> It's a good thing I buy my music either on CD or from HD tracks or similar vendors. I only buy the AAC from the iTunes store when one of my clients wants me to reference a CD that I don't have and I have to listen to it "now". If then I like that music, then I go out and buy it, usually on CD. Amazon has become my major vendor, I pity the brick and mortar stores, though Best Buy seems to be hanging on, they don't have the CD collection I can get online from Amazon. I can then transfer the CD into iTunes and use on my iPhone if I like.
>>>>> For my highest-sonic-quality personal entertainment on my iPhone I use an incredible app called HFPlayer from Onkyo..... in conjunction with an Oppo DAC that connects via Lightning directly to the iPhone and plays any high res. flac files I have on the iPhone up to 384 kHz/24 bit (and also plays DSD directly into the ESS Sabre DAC in the Oppo DAC).... It beats the crap out of the Astel and Kearn stuff that is so unreliable and uber-expensive.
>>>>> Bob L., I tried the Astel and Kearn player and got it to crash in 15 minutes, three times before I called it flakey. And their communication with their dealers and reps is exremely shakey. I do not like this company. If they wanted to make a dependable music player, why did they pick the Android operating system?
>>>>> Also, sorry, Neil Young, this Oppo/iPhone combination beats the Pono because I can also take phone calls  :-(. If I'm jogging or don't want to carry the DAC, the HF Player will downsample the high res material so it will work out of the iPhone's regular headphone jack.
>>>>> Tip: the Oppo PM-3 headphones are killers! Maybe the most accurate and impacting headphones you can get and carry with you to play music.
>>>>> If you want to salivate about the best portable playback on earth, in my opinion, read my review of the Oppo pieces and the HF plyaer: visit http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/katzs-corner-episode-11-oppo-explosion#RiXt3ToxveQ4BMf5.97       These PM-3 headphones have bass that goes down to the center of the earth, are extremely accurate and tonally neutral....  With a little of the 64-bit EQ in the HF-player you can get even more accurate playback.... and the Oppo DAC/headphone amp is clean and punchy and open....
>>>>> I have tons of high res flacs that fit in a 64 GB iPhone. If Apple lost for me the purchased AAC music that I have from the iTunes store I'd be pissed, but not that pissed because I just don't have that much money invested in AAC material I bought from the iTunes store. It seems to me that music must be in the iPhone backup that's on my Mac, though, isn't it????  I'm only semi-attached to the cloud. I use icloud for Notes, Calendar, etc., but not for music (I think). I share my iTunes library with a few OSX computers.... maybe that's through iCloud?  Yuk....
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob K.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 5/7/16 2:39 PM, Thomas Lund wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Bob,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This casual treatment of tracks fits with what I'm seeing in iTunes. One has to actively disable cloud replacement time after time so iTunes doesn?t steal your known-good tracks. From Tidal I?ve heard how record companies require them to carry only the newest (crappiest) version of a track, and make sure originals aren?t available.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Compared to such demolishment, I?m afraid MQA is a sheer marketing detail which is bound to disappoint consumers just like the myriad of previous attempts at promising ?hidef". 24 bit, 16 bit, 14 bit, 12 bit resolution: Doesn?t matter. Dither or not: Doesn?t matter. Sample rate DSD, 192k, 96, 48, 44.1k: Doesn?t matter. Lossless, 320k, 256k, 128k: Doesn?t matter. The version of a track/squashing is what generally matters.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> cheers,
>>>>>> Thomas
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 07/05/2016, at 00.20, Robert Ludwig <gatewaybob at mac.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.iphonehacks.com/2016/05/apple-music-isnt-deleting-music-libraries.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think this article explains it pretty well.  It isn?t as horrible as the blog describes, but it is still taking way too much control for me to ever want to use their service.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BTW, Tidal has 300 albums with MQA so with an MQA converter you can hear streaming 96kHz or even 352.8kHz music!
>>>>>>> MQA is really revolutionary.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>> Bob L.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/6/16 5:01 PM, Grimm | Eelco wrote:
>>>>>>> Dear friends,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If this story is true it is unimaginably horrific.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://blog.vellumatlanta.com/2016/05/04/apple-stole-my-music-no-seriously/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Can anyone please tell me it is not true?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> Eelco
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>>>> -- 
>>>>>
>>>>> If you want good sound on your album, come to
>>>>> Bob Katz 407-831-0233
>>>>> DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
>>>>> Author:
>>>>> Mastering Audio
>>>>> Digital Domain Website
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
>>>>> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please excuse the weird typing - this message dictated by microphone. Contact me by regular email.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>>> ***
>>>> Ian Shepherd
>>>> Mastering Media Ltd - Audio Mastering, Blu-ray and DVD Excellence
>>>> http://twitter.com/ianshepherd
>>>>
>>>> Mastering Media Ltd,
>>>> Kemp House, 152 City Road, London, EC1V 2NX
>>>> Registered in England and Wales
>>>> Company No. 073500450
>>>>
>>>> Tel. +44(0)1487 842498
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> MLA mailing list
>>>
>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>> -- 
>>
>> If you want good sound on your album, come to
>> Bob Katz 407-831-0233
>> DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
>> Author:
>> Mastering Audio
>> Digital Domain Website
>>
>>
>> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
>> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>>
>> Please excuse the weird typing - this message dictated by microphone. Contact me by regular email.
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl

-- 

If you want good sound on your album, come to Bob Katz 407-831-0233 
DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO Author: *Mastering Audio *Digital Domain 
Website <http://www.digido.com/> No trees were killed in the sending of 
this message. However a large number of electrons were terribly 
inconvenienced.*Please excuse the weird typing - this message dictated 
by microphone. Contact me by regular email. *

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From eelco at grimmaudio.com  Wed May 11 09:57:34 2016
From: eelco at grimmaudio.com (Grimm | Eelco)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 09:57:34 +0200
Subject: [MLA] MQA
In-Reply-To: <a9acec28-20b8-af3b-376b-19e9fc5b2676@digido.com>
References: <9225A3CC-C8F8-42D8-B374-4EC16BC40DD7@mac.com>
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	<56D7011F.7090005@digido.com>
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	<315D9F9A-E3F6-45B9-848A-27465272C4DB@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q2fc_swLG7HVjzbMc+rReWmb=zUYyh2ob90UUJj6bjR_Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<4862E4BD-048E-4DF8-AE09-8E0CF3B90FD4@grimmaudio.com>
	<56D89A72.6030109@digido.com>
	<54E38EBD-79AC-4120-A26C-44AD9C449300@grimmaudio.com>
	<"06ed9fb8-f9 5d-a0c4-e07d-7c79d2f5116e"@digido.com>
	<69446CD3-7A95-479F-8A61-4A914D42F063@mac.com>
	<BAAC7455-B634-4085-9C85-C36CAEC83C3D@lund.one>
	<f428afd2-cd0e-f588-5404-30088ad65903@digido.com>
	<534D81B0-C364-4A02-AC8D-90B40B2BD3F1@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<4B456A46-513F-4BA1-BEFF-948CE46D9464@mac.com>
	<c398436c-1dc1-d068-5240-51e89711238b@digido.com>
	<6D94BC82-2986-4EEF-B33B-109AE9DDDB4D@grimmaudio.com>
	<a9acec28-20b8-af3b-376b-19e9fc5b2676@digido.com>
Message-ID: <606B3360-2612-457E-A3F8-63748EFD2345@grimmaudio.com>

Hi Bob,

> Eelco, Yeah. To my experience I can hear a slight degradation after dithering a 2496 Down to 2096. It's small but enough to bother me. I'm on your side about the sample rate, that the bits are far more important. But I'll keep an open mind and try to listen. Right now it's very difficult... I wonder if I can get the Tidal decoder.

On second thought I must say I am not sure if Tidal offers the full decoding in their own API. The DAC's decimation filter compensation is probably not present. There's still some mist around MQA for me. I should have a chat with Bob Stuart in Paris at the AES to clarify things a bit. But maybe someone here knows the answers to these questions:
- Is in the current implementations the decoding locked to the DAC? Or just the compensation? Can you compensate without decoding an MQA stream?
- Will Tidal not decode MQA itself when the DAC has an MQA decoder built in? 
- Is the AD decimation filter 'compensated'? If so, how?

> You did some excellent comparison tests. Did you have an MQA digital decoder or just an MQA DAC?

As far as my memory serves me (I'm not good at remembering things in high detail that happened in the past) Alan had access to an MQA encoder so he could select his own track. In any case we had the original side by side with the MQA encoded and decoded versions. They were all in wav files so we could use Alan's DAC. We also listened to an MQA DAC (since part of the decoding trick is to 'compensate' for the DAC's decimation filter anomalies and that's obviously only available in the DAC itsefl). The DAC sounded worse than Alan's reference DAC, so I cannot really say anything about that.

> Did Alan agree with your conclusions?

No. It's also a matter of taste probably. But in my ears MQA was 'different' from the original and the decimated version just slightly reduced in quality. In the past months I have learned that the quality of the decimation filters has to be _extremely_ high to not be audible. But I repeat: I cannot draw a conclusion based upon just one listening test.

> Comparing MQA to HDCD is not a good analogy....  MQA is far more sophisticated. 

Sure! But it is fun that the same idea of packing > Nyquist energy in the lower bits got rejuvenated and I'm just curious to hear what the performance improvement level really is. 

Cheers,
Eelco

>> Hi Bob K,
>> 
>> 
>>> Dear Bob L. I have written to Bob Stuart but not gotten any response yet. Of course I want to audition MQA, but I'm using a digital crossover, and for stereo I have 4 channels of DAC so I need a digital MQA "decoder". Any thoughts on that?
>>> 
>> The Tidal MQA decoder should take care of that. 
>> 
>> I listened to MQA at Alan Silverman's studio last AES. Alan was very enthusiastic, but in my ears MQA was not identical to the original. Compared to a downsampled version you loose some and you gain some. MQA is based on the presumption that high sampling is more important than more bits: the HF info is coded into the bottom 4 bits, which effectively means you have to choose between 48 / 24 versus 384 / 20. 
>> 
>> We compared:
>> 1. Original 96/24 file
>> 2. Saracon downsampled 48/24
>> 3. MQA non-decoded ("48/20")
>> 4. MQA decoded ("96/20")
>> 
>> For me personally #2 came closest to #1. I have to admit I was a bit disappointed, but it also confirmed my experience that with real high quality decimation filters 48 kHz tracks are hard to distinguish from the high sampling original (as a delivery format that is - during production high sampling is a must). But bits do count. Of course my experience could also be effected by MQA's "de-blur" algorithm, which claims to undo the ripple of the original AD converter (or subsequent decimation filters), but I have too little information about it to know what it does exactly and how it 'sounds'.
>> 
>> I'd certainly love to do furter testing on MQA. And just out of curiosity I'd love to compare it to HDCD - which was a similar process, though just with 44/16 packing space, which is obviously worse than 48/24.
>> 
>> All the best,
>> Eelco
>> 
>> 
>>> On 5/9/16 11:24 AM, Robert Ludwig wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hi Ian,
>>>> 
>>>> Just to reiterate, Thomas is 100% right in my opinion, needlessly crushing music is by FAR the #1 item that needs to be fixed for better sound, nothing else matters when you start with unsatisfying music.  However, assuming you?ve got great sounding music, then all the rest comes in to play!
>>>> 
>>>> The TIDAL MQA material isn?t officially launched yet, but Bob Stuart said there are people who know the URL that would get one to the beta site.
>>>> 
>>>> I don?t know how much you know about MQA, but it is several ?things? under one MQA name.  It is an audio de-blur algorithm, it is a ?folding? or data compressing algorithm folding 384 kHz or less into either a 44.1kHz or 48kHz/24 bit file (which can be streamed at 1 - 1.3MB/sec) and it is a digital copy protection scheme where theoretically you could make a one-off DAC that is coded to your converter and only people with the same converter could hear the music!
>>>> 
>>>> As far as MQA examples go, without an MQA DAC you can?t hear the whole thing, but one could hear some of the results of the de-blur process using a normal converter.  I?m trying to see if I can find you a before and after example.  I?ll get back to you.
>>>> 
>>>> In the mean time, you can check out Morten Lindberg's 2L label ?test bench?.  Even though he is recording at 352.8kHz, Morten still finds the MQA to create a superior sound.
>>>> It?s a mind blower to see a 44.1kHz/24 bit file feed the MQA converter and the resulting FFT goes right out to 176.4kHz!!
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html
>>>> ?
>>>> 
>>>> Best,
>>>> Bob
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On May 8, 2016, at 6:20 PM, Ian Shepherd <ian at mastering-media.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Bob L,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Can you recommend a release that really highlights the benefits of MQA ? Is there a way to tell which files on TIDAL are encoded with MQA ? And is there a converter you?d recommend ? 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Although I?m afraid Thomas may well be right, I?m curious to give it a try.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ian
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 8 May 2016, at 14:27, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Guys: 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It's a good thing I buy my music either on CD or from HD tracks or similar vendors. I only buy the AAC from the iTunes store when one of my clients wants me to reference a CD that I don't have and I have to listen to it "now". If then I like that music, then I go out and buy it, usually on CD. Amazon has become my major vendor, I pity the brick and mortar stores, though Best Buy seems to be hanging on, they don't have the CD collection I can get online from Amazon. I can then transfer the CD into iTunes and use on my iPhone if I like. 
>>>>>> For my highest-sonic-quality personal entertainment on my iPhone I use an incredible app called HFPlayer from Onkyo..... in conjunction with an Oppo DAC that connects via Lightning directly to the iPhone and plays any high res. flac files I have on the iPhone up to 384 kHz/24 bit (and also plays DSD directly into the ESS Sabre DAC in the Oppo DAC).... It beats the crap out of the Astel and Kearn stuff that is so unreliable and uber-expensive. 
>>>>>> Bob L., I tried the Astel and Kearn player and got it to crash in 15 minutes, three times before I called it flakey. And their communication with their dealers and reps is exremely shakey. I do not like this company. If they wanted to make a dependable music player, why did they pick the Android operating system?
>>>>>> Also, sorry, Neil Young, this Oppo/iPhone combination beats the Pono because I can also take phone calls  :-(. If I'm jogging or don't want to carry the DAC, the HF Player will downsample the high res material so it will work out of the iPhone's regular headphone jack. 
>>>>>> Tip: the Oppo PM-3 headphones are killers! Maybe the most accurate and impacting headphones you can get and carry with you to play music. 
>>>>>> If you want to salivate about the best portable playback on earth, in my opinion, read my review of the Oppo pieces and the HF plyaer: visit 
>>>>>> http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/katzs-corner-episode-11-oppo-explosion#RiXt3ToxveQ4BMf5.97
>>>>>>       These PM-3 headphones have bass that goes down to the center of the earth, are extremely accurate and tonally neutral....  With a little of the 64-bit EQ in the HF-player you can get even more accurate playback.... and the Oppo DAC/headphone amp is clean and punchy and open....  
>>>>>> I have tons of high res flacs that fit in a 64 GB iPhone. If Apple lost for me the purchased AAC music that I have from the iTunes store I'd be pissed, but not that pissed because I just don't have that much money invested in AAC material I bought from the iTunes store. It seems to me that music must be in the iPhone backup that's on my Mac, though, isn't it????  I'm only semi-attached to the cloud. I use icloud for Notes, Calendar, etc., but not for music (I think). I share my iTunes library with a few OSX computers.... maybe that's through iCloud?  Yuk....
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Bob K.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 5/7/16 2:39 PM, Thomas Lund wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hi Bob,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> This casual treatment of tracks fits with what I'm seeing in iTunes. One has to actively disable cloud replacement time after time so iTunes doesn?t steal your known-good tracks. From Tidal I?ve heard how record companies require them to carry only the newest (crappiest) version of a track, and make sure originals aren?t available.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Compared to such demolishment, I?m afraid MQA is a sheer marketing detail which is bound to disappoint consumers just like the myriad of previous attempts at promising ?hidef". 24 bit, 16 bit, 14 bit, 12 bit resolution: Doesn?t matter. Dither or not: Doesn?t matter. Sample rate DSD, 192k, 96, 48, 44.1k: Doesn?t matter. Lossless, 320k, 256k, 128k: Doesn?t matter. The version of a track/squashing is what generally matters.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> cheers,
>>>>>>> Thomas
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 07/05/2016, at 00.20, Robert Ludwig <gatewaybob at mac.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> http://www.iphonehacks.com/2016/05/apple-music-isnt-deleting-music-libraries.html
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I think this article explains it pretty well.  It isn?t as horrible as the blog describes, but it is still taking way too much control for me to ever want to use their service.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> BTW, Tidal has 300 albums with MQA so with an MQA converter you can hear streaming 96kHz or even 352.8kHz music!
>>>>>>>> MQA is really revolutionary.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>> Bob L.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 5/6/16 5:01 PM, Grimm | Eelco wrote:
>>>>>>>> Dear friends,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> If this story is true it is unimaginably horrific. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> https://blog.vellumatlanta.com/2016/05/04/apple-stole-my-music-no-seriously/
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Can anyone please tell me it is not true?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>> Eelco
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> If you want good sound on your album, come to
>>>>>> Bob Katz 407-831-0233 
>>>>>> DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
>>>>>> Author: 
>>>>>> Mastering Audio              
>>>>>> Digital Domain Website
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
>>>>>> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Please excuse the weird typing - this message dictated by microphone. Contact me by regular email. 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>>>> ***
>>>>> Ian Shepherd
>>>>> Mastering Media Ltd - Audio Mastering, Blu-ray and DVD Excellence
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://twitter.com/ianshepherd
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Mastering Media Ltd,
>>>>> Kemp House, 152 City Road, London, EC1V 2NX
>>>>> Registered in England and Wales 
>>>>> Company No. 073500450
>>>>> 
>>>>> Tel. +44(0)1487 842498
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>>> 
>>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>> -- 
>>> 
>>> If you want good sound on your album, come to
>>> Bob Katz 407-831-0233 
>>> DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
>>> Author: 
>>> Mastering Audio              
>>> Digital Domain Website
>>> 
>>> 
>>> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
>>> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>>> 
>>> Please excuse the weird typing - this message dictated by microphone. Contact me by regular email. 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> MLA mailing list
>>> 
>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> 
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
> 
> -- 
> 
> If you want good sound on your album, come to
> Bob Katz 407-831-0233 
> DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
> Author: 
> Mastering Audio              
> Digital Domain Website
> 
> 
> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
> 
> Please excuse the weird typing - this message dictated by microphone. Contact me by regular email. 
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl



From thomas at lund.one  Wed May 11 16:08:50 2016
From: thomas at lund.one (Thomas Lund)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 16:08:50 +0200
Subject: [MLA] MQA
In-Reply-To: <606B3360-2612-457E-A3F8-63748EFD2345@grimmaudio.com>
References: <9225A3CC-C8F8-42D8-B374-4EC16BC40DD7@mac.com>
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	<56D7011F.7090005@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q17k-78_4wBqjT+FR9MbZG3Q5jYzmOnmoyR8sHi60VzjA@mail.gmail.com>
	<315D9F9A-E3F6-45B9-848A-27465272C4DB@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q2fc_swLG7HVjzbMc+rReWmb=zUYyh2ob90UUJj6bjR_Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<4862E4BD-048E-4DF8-AE09-8E0CF3B90FD4@grimmaudio.com>
	<56D89A72.6030109@digido.com>
	<54E38EBD-79AC-4120-A26C-44AD9C449300@grimmaudio.com>
	<"06ed9fb8-f9 5d-a0c4-e07d-7c79d2f5116e"@digido.com>
	<69446CD3-7A95-479F-8A61-4A914D42F063@mac.com>
	<BAAC7455-B634-4085-9C85-C36CAEC83C3D@lund.one>
	<f428afd2-cd0e-f588-5404-30088ad65903@digido.com>
	<534D81B0-C364-4A02-AC8D-90B40B2BD3F1@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<4B456A46-513F-4BA1-BEFF-948CE46D9464@mac.com>
	<c398436c-1dc1-d068-5240-51e89711238b@digido.com>
	<6D94BC82-2986-4EEF-B33B-109AE9DDDB4D@grimmaudio.com>
	<a9acec28-20b8-af3b-376b-19e9fc5b2676@digido.c
	om> <606B3360-2612-457E-A3F8-63748EFD2345@grimmaudio.com>
Message-ID: <0FFF93A2-4A2C-436B-81B3-ACC5120CDFD6@lund.one>

Hi Bob and Eelco,

What is ?difference?? When testing resampling filters, I?ve taken part in tests using a remote controlled Yamaha grand picked up by mics going only through the analog domain, and the same mics taking an AD-DA detour. Sometimes subjects would prefer the latter, but results were never really significant. Should that happen, and if the latter was preferred, what would it signify? At the end, we need proof, not more claims.

There haven?t even been credible listening experiments showing that we favor 96 kHz sampled recordings over 48 kHz. It?s almost impossible to make experiements in this regards that eliminate confounders - and that?s what the dubious part of the hi-fi industry is living from.

However, with many of these exotic issues, predictability tends to go down as new patches are invented. That in turn drives FUD and takes away attention from what matters. High sample rates can result in unexpected interference products, sometimes even acoustically, and the same will be true with a ?de-blurring? filter and most other processes that alter time/frequency domain parameters. Different, and so what?

It should be in the mastering engineer?s best interest to keep predictability of the downstream path high. Not if and if and if and if...

kind regards,
Thomas



> On 11/05/2016, at 09.57, Grimm | Eelco <eelco at grimmaudio.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Bob,
> 
>> Eelco, Yeah. To my experience I can hear a slight degradation after dithering a 2496 Down to 2096. It's small but enough to bother me. I'm on your side about the sample rate, that the bits are far more important. But I'll keep an open mind and try to listen. Right now it's very difficult... I wonder if I can get the Tidal decoder.
> 
> On second thought I must say I am not sure if Tidal offers the full decoding in their own API. The DAC's decimation filter compensation is probably not present. There's still some mist around MQA for me. I should have a chat with Bob Stuart in Paris at the AES to clarify things a bit. But maybe someone here knows the answers to these questions:
> - Is in the current implementations the decoding locked to the DAC? Or just the compensation? Can you compensate without decoding an MQA stream?
> - Will Tidal not decode MQA itself when the DAC has an MQA decoder built in? 
> - Is the AD decimation filter 'compensated'? If so, how?
> 
>> You did some excellent comparison tests. Did you have an MQA digital decoder or just an MQA DAC?
> 
> As far as my memory serves me (I'm not good at remembering things in high detail that happened in the past) Alan had access to an MQA encoder so he could select his own track. In any case we had the original side by side with the MQA encoded and decoded versions. They were all in wav files so we could use Alan's DAC. We also listened to an MQA DAC (since part of the decoding trick is to 'compensate' for the DAC's decimation filter anomalies and that's obviously only available in the DAC itsefl). The DAC sounded worse than Alan's reference DAC, so I cannot really say anything about that.
> 
>> Did Alan agree with your conclusions?
> 
> No. It's also a matter of taste probably. But in my ears MQA was 'different' from the original and the decimated version just slightly reduced in quality. In the past months I have learned that the quality of the decimation filters has to be _extremely_ high to not be audible. But I repeat: I cannot draw a conclusion based upon just one listening test.
> 
>> Comparing MQA to HDCD is not a good analogy....  MQA is far more sophisticated. 
> 
> Sure! But it is fun that the same idea of packing > Nyquist energy in the lower bits got rejuvenated and I'm just curious to hear what the performance improvement level really is. 
> 
> Cheers,
> Eelco
> 
>>> Hi Bob K,
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Dear Bob L. I have written to Bob Stuart but not gotten any response yet. Of course I want to audition MQA, but I'm using a digital crossover, and for stereo I have 4 channels of DAC so I need a digital MQA "decoder". Any thoughts on that?
>>>> 
>>> The Tidal MQA decoder should take care of that. 
>>> 
>>> I listened to MQA at Alan Silverman's studio last AES. Alan was very enthusiastic, but in my ears MQA was not identical to the original. Compared to a downsampled version you loose some and you gain some. MQA is based on the presumption that high sampling is more important than more bits: the HF info is coded into the bottom 4 bits, which effectively means you have to choose between 48 / 24 versus 384 / 20. 
>>> 
>>> We compared:
>>> 1. Original 96/24 file
>>> 2. Saracon downsampled 48/24
>>> 3. MQA non-decoded ("48/20")
>>> 4. MQA decoded ("96/20")
>>> 
>>> For me personally #2 came closest to #1. I have to admit I was a bit disappointed, but it also confirmed my experience that with real high quality decimation filters 48 kHz tracks are hard to distinguish from the high sampling original (as a delivery format that is - during production high sampling is a must). But bits do count. Of course my experience could also be effected by MQA's "de-blur" algorithm, which claims to undo the ripple of the original AD converter (or subsequent decimation filters), but I have too little information about it to know what it does exactly and how it 'sounds'.
>>> 
>>> I'd certainly love to do furter testing on MQA. And just out of curiosity I'd love to compare it to HDCD - which was a similar process, though just with 44/16 packing space, which is obviously worse than 48/24.
>>> 
>>> All the best,
>>> Eelco
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 5/9/16 11:24 AM, Robert Ludwig wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Ian,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Just to reiterate, Thomas is 100% right in my opinion, needlessly crushing music is by FAR the #1 item that needs to be fixed for better sound, nothing else matters when you start with unsatisfying music.  However, assuming you?ve got great sounding music, then all the rest comes in to play!
>>>>> 
>>>>> The TIDAL MQA material isn?t officially launched yet, but Bob Stuart said there are people who know the URL that would get one to the beta site.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I don?t know how much you know about MQA, but it is several ?things? under one MQA name.  It is an audio de-blur algorithm, it is a ?folding? or data compressing algorithm folding 384 kHz or less into either a 44.1kHz or 48kHz/24 bit file (which can be streamed at 1 - 1.3MB/sec) and it is a digital copy protection scheme where theoretically you could make a one-off DAC that is coded to your converter and only people with the same converter could hear the music!
>>>>> 
>>>>> As far as MQA examples go, without an MQA DAC you can?t hear the whole thing, but one could hear some of the results of the de-blur process using a normal converter.  I?m trying to see if I can find you a before and after example.  I?ll get back to you.
>>>>> 
>>>>> In the mean time, you can check out Morten Lindberg's 2L label ?test bench?.  Even though he is recording at 352.8kHz, Morten still finds the MQA to create a superior sound.
>>>>> It?s a mind blower to see a 44.1kHz/24 bit file feed the MQA converter and the resulting FFT goes right out to 176.4kHz!!
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html
>>>>> ?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Bob
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On May 8, 2016, at 6:20 PM, Ian Shepherd <ian at mastering-media.co.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Bob L,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Can you recommend a release that really highlights the benefits of MQA ? Is there a way to tell which files on TIDAL are encoded with MQA ? And is there a converter you?d recommend ? 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Although I?m afraid Thomas may well be right, I?m curious to give it a try.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ian
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 8 May 2016, at 14:27, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Guys: 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> It's a good thing I buy my music either on CD or from HD tracks or similar vendors. I only buy the AAC from the iTunes store when one of my clients wants me to reference a CD that I don't have and I have to listen to it "now". If then I like that music, then I go out and buy it, usually on CD. Amazon has become my major vendor, I pity the brick and mortar stores, though Best Buy seems to be hanging on, they don't have the CD collection I can get online from Amazon. I can then transfer the CD into iTunes and use on my iPhone if I like. 
>>>>>>> For my highest-sonic-quality personal entertainment on my iPhone I use an incredible app called HFPlayer from Onkyo..... in conjunction with an Oppo DAC that connects via Lightning directly to the iPhone and plays any high res. flac files I have on the iPhone up to 384 kHz/24 bit (and also plays DSD directly into the ESS Sabre DAC in the Oppo DAC).... It beats the crap out of the Astel and Kearn stuff that is so unreliable and uber-expensive. 
>>>>>>> Bob L., I tried the Astel and Kearn player and got it to crash in 15 minutes, three times before I called it flakey. And their communication with their dealers and reps is exremely shakey. I do not like this company. If they wanted to make a dependable music player, why did they pick the Android operating system?
>>>>>>> Also, sorry, Neil Young, this Oppo/iPhone combination beats the Pono because I can also take phone calls  :-(. If I'm jogging or don't want to carry the DAC, the HF Player will downsample the high res material so it will work out of the iPhone's regular headphone jack. 
>>>>>>> Tip: the Oppo PM-3 headphones are killers! Maybe the most accurate and impacting headphones you can get and carry with you to play music. 
>>>>>>> If you want to salivate about the best portable playback on earth, in my opinion, read my review of the Oppo pieces and the HF plyaer: visit 
>>>>>>> http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/katzs-corner-episode-11-oppo-explosion#RiXt3ToxveQ4BMf5.97
>>>>>>>      These PM-3 headphones have bass that goes down to the center of the earth, are extremely accurate and tonally neutral....  With a little of the 64-bit EQ in the HF-player you can get even more accurate playback.... and the Oppo DAC/headphone amp is clean and punchy and open....  
>>>>>>> I have tons of high res flacs that fit in a 64 GB iPhone. If Apple lost for me the purchased AAC music that I have from the iTunes store I'd be pissed, but not that pissed because I just don't have that much money invested in AAC material I bought from the iTunes store. It seems to me that music must be in the iPhone backup that's on my Mac, though, isn't it????  I'm only semi-attached to the cloud. I use icloud for Notes, Calendar, etc., but not for music (I think). I share my iTunes library with a few OSX computers.... maybe that's through iCloud?  Yuk....
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Bob K.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 5/7/16 2:39 PM, Thomas Lund wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Hi Bob,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> This casual treatment of tracks fits with what I'm seeing in iTunes. One has to actively disable cloud replacement time after time so iTunes doesn?t steal your known-good tracks. From Tidal I?ve heard how record companies require them to carry only the newest (crappiest) version of a track, and make sure originals aren?t available.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Compared to such demolishment, I?m afraid MQA is a sheer marketing detail which is bound to disappoint consumers just like the myriad of previous attempts at promising ?hidef". 24 bit, 16 bit, 14 bit, 12 bit resolution: Doesn?t matter. Dither or not: Doesn?t matter. Sample rate DSD, 192k, 96, 48, 44.1k: Doesn?t matter. Lossless, 320k, 256k, 128k: Doesn?t matter. The version of a track/squashing is what generally matters.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> cheers,
>>>>>>>> Thomas
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 07/05/2016, at 00.20, Robert Ludwig <gatewaybob at mac.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> http://www.iphonehacks.com/2016/05/apple-music-isnt-deleting-music-libraries.html
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I think this article explains it pretty well.  It isn?t as horrible as the blog describes, but it is still taking way too much control for me to ever want to use their service.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> BTW, Tidal has 300 albums with MQA so with an MQA converter you can hear streaming 96kHz or even 352.8kHz music!
>>>>>>>>> MQA is really revolutionary.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>> Bob L.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 5/6/16 5:01 PM, Grimm | Eelco wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Dear friends,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> If this story is true it is unimaginably horrific. 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> https://blog.vellumatlanta.com/2016/05/04/apple-stole-my-music-no-seriously/
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Can anyone please tell me it is not true?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>> Eelco
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> If you want good sound on your album, come to
>>>>>>> Bob Katz 407-831-0233 
>>>>>>> DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
>>>>>>> Author: 
>>>>>>> Mastering Audio              
>>>>>>> Digital Domain Website
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
>>>>>>> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Please excuse the weird typing - this message dictated by microphone. Contact me by regular email. 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>> ***
>>>>>> Ian Shepherd
>>>>>> Mastering Media Ltd - Audio Mastering, Blu-ray and DVD Excellence
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> http://twitter.com/ianshepherd
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Mastering Media Ltd,
>>>>>> Kemp House, 152 City Road, London, EC1V 2NX
>>>>>> Registered in England and Wales 
>>>>>> Company No. 073500450
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Tel. +44(0)1487 842498
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>>> -- 
>>>> 
>>>> If you want good sound on your album, come to
>>>> Bob Katz 407-831-0233 
>>>> DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
>>>> Author: 
>>>> Mastering Audio              
>>>> Digital Domain Website
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
>>>> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>>>> 
>>>> Please excuse the weird typing - this message dictated by microphone. Contact me by regular email. 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>> 
>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> MLA mailing list
>>> 
>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>> 
>> -- 
>> 
>> If you want good sound on your album, come to
>> Bob Katz 407-831-0233 
>> DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
>> Author: 
>> Mastering Audio              
>> Digital Domain Website
>> 
>> 
>> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
>> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>> 
>> Please excuse the weird typing - this message dictated by microphone. Contact me by regular email. 
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl

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From eelco at grimmaudio.com  Wed May 11 17:06:07 2016
From: eelco at grimmaudio.com (Grimm | Eelco)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 17:06:07 +0200
Subject: [MLA] MQA
In-Reply-To: <0FFF93A2-4A2C-436B-81B3-ACC5120CDFD6@lund.one>
References: <9225A3CC-C8F8-42D8-B374-4EC16BC40DD7@mac.com>
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	<315D9F9A-E3F6-45B9-848A-27465272C4DB@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q2fc_swLG7HVjzbMc+rReWmb=zUYyh2ob90UUJj6bjR_Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<4862E4BD-048E-4DF8-AE09-8E0CF3B90FD4@grimmaudio.com>
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	<BAAC7455-B634-4085-9C85-C36CAEC83C3D@lund.one>
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Message-ID: <01BDF114-68E8-4839-903D-007FAB6AA3C4@grimmaudio.com>

Hi Thomas,

> What is ?difference?? When testing resampling filters, I?ve taken part in tests using a remote controlled Yamaha grand picked up by mics going only through the analog domain, and the same mics taking an AD-DA detour.

Mark that in an AD-DA path jitter is largely compensated. In a DA-AD chain (re-recording a track via a converter for instance) relevant jitter is even compensated almost completely. So in such a setup you're only testing the distortion of the ADDA chain, the quality of the decimation filters and the sigma delta modulators, plus the analogue path quality. Unfortunately jitter is one of the main issues with digital audio sound quality and it is not taken into the equation in a test like this. 

In any case I agree that 48k can sound extremely well and that we should first solve the most significant problems...

Cheers,
Eelco

> Sometimes subjects would prefer the latter, but results were never really significant. Should that happen, and if the latter was preferred, what would it signify? At the end, we need proof, not more claims.
> 
> There haven?t even been credible listening experiments showing that we favor 96 kHz sampled recordings over 48 kHz. It?s almost impossible to make experiements in this regards that eliminate confounders - and that?s what the dubious part of the hi-fi industry is living from.
> 
> However, with many of these exotic issues, predictability tends to go down as new patches are invented. That in turn drives FUD and takes away attention from what matters. High sample rates can result in unexpected interference products, sometimes even acoustically, and the same will be true with a ?de-blurring? filter and most other processes that alter time/frequency domain parameters. Different, and so what?
> 
> It should be in the mastering engineer?s best interest to keep predictability of the downstream path high. Not if and if and if and if...
> 
> kind regards,
> Thomas
> 
> 
> 
>> On 11/05/2016, at 09.57, Grimm | Eelco <eelco at grimmaudio.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Bob,
>> 
>>> Eelco, Yeah. To my experience I can hear a slight degradation after dithering a 2496 Down to 2096. It's small but enough to bother me. I'm on your side about the sample rate, that the bits are far more important. But I'll keep an open mind and try to listen. Right now it's very difficult... I wonder if I can get the Tidal decoder.
>> 
>> On second thought I must say I am not sure if Tidal offers the full decoding in their own API. The DAC's decimation filter compensation is probably not present. There's still some mist around MQA for me. I should have a chat with Bob Stuart in Paris at the AES to clarify things a bit. But maybe someone here knows the answers to these questions:
>> - Is in the current implementations the decoding locked to the DAC? Or just the compensation? Can you compensate without decoding an MQA stream?
>> - Will Tidal not decode MQA itself when the DAC has an MQA decoder built in? 
>> - Is the AD decimation filter 'compensated'? If so, how?
>> 
>>> You did some excellent comparison tests. Did you have an MQA digital decoder or just an MQA DAC?
>> 
>> As far as my memory serves me (I'm not good at remembering things in high detail that happened in the past) Alan had access to an MQA encoder so he could select his own track. In any case we had the original side by side with the MQA encoded and decoded versions. They were all in wav files so we could use Alan's DAC. We also listened to an MQA DAC (since part of the decoding trick is to 'compensate' for the DAC's decimation filter anomalies and that's obviously only available in the DAC itsefl). The DAC sounded worse than Alan's reference DAC, so I cannot really say anything about that.
>> 
>>> Did Alan agree with your conclusions?
>> 
>> No. It's also a matter of taste probably. But in my ears MQA was 'different' from the original and the decimated version just slightly reduced in quality. In the past months I have learned that the quality of the decimation filters has to be _extremely_ high to not be audible. But I repeat: I cannot draw a conclusion based upon just one listening test.
>> 
>>> Comparing MQA to HDCD is not a good analogy....  MQA is far more sophisticated. 
>> 
>> Sure! But it is fun that the same idea of packing > Nyquist energy in the lower bits got rejuvenated and I'm just curious to hear what the performance improvement level really is. 
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Eelco
>> 
>>>> Hi Bob K,
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Dear Bob L. I have written to Bob Stuart but not gotten any response yet. Of course I want to audition MQA, but I'm using a digital crossover, and for stereo I have 4 channels of DAC so I need a digital MQA "decoder". Any thoughts on that?
>>>>> 
>>>> The Tidal MQA decoder should take care of that. 
>>>> 
>>>> I listened to MQA at Alan Silverman's studio last AES. Alan was very enthusiastic, but in my ears MQA was not identical to the original. Compared to a downsampled version you loose some and you gain some. MQA is based on the presumption that high sampling is more important than more bits: the HF info is coded into the bottom 4 bits, which effectively means you have to choose between 48 / 24 versus 384 / 20. 
>>>> 
>>>> We compared:
>>>> 1. Original 96/24 file
>>>> 2. Saracon downsampled 48/24
>>>> 3. MQA non-decoded ("48/20")
>>>> 4. MQA decoded ("96/20")
>>>> 
>>>> For me personally #2 came closest to #1. I have to admit I was a bit disappointed, but it also confirmed my experience that with real high quality decimation filters 48 kHz tracks are hard to distinguish from the high sampling original (as a delivery format that is - during production high sampling is a must). But bits do count. Of course my experience could also be effected by MQA's "de-blur" algorithm, which claims to undo the ripple of the original AD converter (or subsequent decimation filters), but I have too little information about it to know what it does exactly and how it 'sounds'.
>>>> 
>>>> I'd certainly love to do furter testing on MQA. And just out of curiosity I'd love to compare it to HDCD - which was a similar process, though just with 44/16 packing space, which is obviously worse than 48/24.
>>>> 
>>>> All the best,
>>>> Eelco
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On 5/9/16 11:24 AM, Robert Ludwig wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi Ian,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Just to reiterate, Thomas is 100% right in my opinion, needlessly crushing music is by FAR the #1 item that needs to be fixed for better sound, nothing else matters when you start with unsatisfying music.  However, assuming you?ve got great sounding music, then all the rest comes in to play!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The TIDAL MQA material isn?t officially launched yet, but Bob Stuart said there are people who know the URL that would get one to the beta site.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I don?t know how much you know about MQA, but it is several ?things? under one MQA name.  It is an audio de-blur algorithm, it is a ?folding? or data compressing algorithm folding 384 kHz or less into either a 44.1kHz or 48kHz/24 bit file (which can be streamed at 1 - 1.3MB/sec) and it is a digital copy protection scheme where theoretically you could make a one-off DAC that is coded to your converter and only people with the same converter could hear the music!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> As far as MQA examples go, without an MQA DAC you can?t hear the whole thing, but one could hear some of the results of the de-blur process using a normal converter.  I?m trying to see if I can find you a before and after example.  I?ll get back to you.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> In the mean time, you can check out Morten Lindberg's 2L label ?test bench?.  Even though he is recording at 352.8kHz, Morten still finds the MQA to create a superior sound.
>>>>>> It?s a mind blower to see a 44.1kHz/24 bit file feed the MQA converter and the resulting FFT goes right out to 176.4kHz!!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html
>>>>>> ?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On May 8, 2016, at 6:20 PM, Ian Shepherd <ian at mastering-media.co.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Bob L,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Can you recommend a release that really highlights the benefits of MQA ? Is there a way to tell which files on TIDAL are encoded with MQA ? And is there a converter you?d recommend ? 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Although I?m afraid Thomas may well be right, I?m curious to give it a try.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Ian
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 8 May 2016, at 14:27, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Guys: 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> It's a good thing I buy my music either on CD or from HD tracks or similar vendors. I only buy the AAC from the iTunes store when one of my clients wants me to reference a CD that I don't have and I have to listen to it "now". If then I like that music, then I go out and buy it, usually on CD. Amazon has become my major vendor, I pity the brick and mortar stores, though Best Buy seems to be hanging on, they don't have the CD collection I can get online from Amazon. I can then transfer the CD into iTunes and use on my iPhone if I like. 
>>>>>>>> For my highest-sonic-quality personal entertainment on my iPhone I use an incredible app called HFPlayer from Onkyo..... in conjunction with an Oppo DAC that connects via Lightning directly to the iPhone and plays any high res. flac files I have on the iPhone up to 384 kHz/24 bit (and also plays DSD directly into the ESS Sabre DAC in the Oppo DAC).... It beats the crap out of the Astel and Kearn stuff that is so unreliable and uber-expensive. 
>>>>>>>> Bob L., I tried the Astel and Kearn player and got it to crash in 15 minutes, three times before I called it flakey. And their communication with their dealers and reps is exremely shakey. I do not like this company. If they wanted to make a dependable music player, why did they pick the Android operating system?
>>>>>>>> Also, sorry, Neil Young, this Oppo/iPhone combination beats the Pono because I can also take phone calls  :-(. If I'm jogging or don't want to carry the DAC, the HF Player will downsample the high res material so it will work out of the iPhone's regular headphone jack. 
>>>>>>>> Tip: the Oppo PM-3 headphones are killers! Maybe the most accurate and impacting headphones you can get and carry with you to play music. 
>>>>>>>> If you want to salivate about the best portable playback on earth, in my opinion, read my review of the Oppo pieces and the HF plyaer: visit 
>>>>>>>> http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/katzs-corner-episode-11-oppo-explosion#RiXt3ToxveQ4BMf5.97
>>>>>>>>      These PM-3 headphones have bass that goes down to the center of the earth, are extremely accurate and tonally neutral....  With a little of the 64-bit EQ in the HF-player you can get even more accurate playback.... and the Oppo DAC/headphone amp is clean and punchy and open....  
>>>>>>>> I have tons of high res flacs that fit in a 64 GB iPhone. If Apple lost for me the purchased AAC music that I have from the iTunes store I'd be pissed, but not that pissed because I just don't have that much money invested in AAC material I bought from the iTunes store. It seems to me that music must be in the iPhone backup that's on my Mac, though, isn't it????  I'm only semi-attached to the cloud. I use icloud for Notes, Calendar, etc., but not for music (I think). I share my iTunes library with a few OSX computers.... maybe that's through iCloud?  Yuk....
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Bob K.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 5/7/16 2:39 PM, Thomas Lund wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Hi Bob,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> This casual treatment of tracks fits with what I'm seeing in iTunes. One has to actively disable cloud replacement time after time so iTunes doesn?t steal your known-good tracks. From Tidal I?ve heard how record companies require them to carry only the newest (crappiest) version of a track, and make sure originals aren?t available.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Compared to such demolishment, I?m afraid MQA is a sheer marketing detail which is bound to disappoint consumers just like the myriad of previous attempts at promising ?hidef". 24 bit, 16 bit, 14 bit, 12 bit resolution: Doesn?t matter. Dither or not: Doesn?t matter. Sample rate DSD, 192k, 96, 48, 44.1k: Doesn?t matter. Lossless, 320k, 256k, 128k: Doesn?t matter. The version of a track/squashing is what generally matters.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> cheers,
>>>>>>>>> Thomas
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On 07/05/2016, at 00.20, Robert Ludwig <gatewaybob at mac.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.iphonehacks.com/2016/05/apple-music-isnt-deleting-music-libraries.html
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I think this article explains it pretty well.  It isn?t as horrible as the blog describes, but it is still taking way too much control for me to ever want to use their service.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> BTW, Tidal has 300 albums with MQA so with an MQA converter you can hear streaming 96kHz or even 352.8kHz music!
>>>>>>>>>> MQA is really revolutionary.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>> Bob L.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/6/16 5:01 PM, Grimm | Eelco wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Dear friends,
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> If this story is true it is unimaginably horrific. 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> https://blog.vellumatlanta.com/2016/05/04/apple-stole-my-music-no-seriously/
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Can anyone please tell me it is not true?
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>> Eelco
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>>>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>>>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> If you want good sound on your album, come to
>>>>>>>> Bob Katz 407-831-0233 
>>>>>>>> DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
>>>>>>>> Author: 
>>>>>>>> Mastering Audio              
>>>>>>>> Digital Domain Website
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
>>>>>>>> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Please excuse the weird typing - this message dictated by microphone. Contact me by regular email. 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>>> ***
>>>>>>> Ian Shepherd
>>>>>>> Mastering Media Ltd - Audio Mastering, Blu-ray and DVD Excellence
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/ianshepherd
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Mastering Media Ltd,
>>>>>>> Kemp House, 152 City Road, London, EC1V 2NX
>>>>>>> Registered in England and Wales 
>>>>>>> Company No. 073500450
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Tel. +44(0)1487 842498
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> 
>>>>> If you want good sound on your album, come to
>>>>> Bob Katz 407-831-0233 
>>>>> DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
>>>>> Author: 
>>>>> Mastering Audio              
>>>>> Digital Domain Website
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
>>>>> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Please excuse the weird typing - this message dictated by microphone. Contact me by regular email. 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>>> 
>>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>> 
>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> 
>>> If you want good sound on your album, come to
>>> Bob Katz 407-831-0233 
>>> DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
>>> Author: 
>>> Mastering Audio              
>>> Digital Domain Website
>>> 
>>> 
>>> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
>>> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>>> 
>>> Please excuse the weird typing - this message dictated by microphone. Contact me by regular email. 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> MLA mailing list
>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
> 
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl



From florian.camerer at orf.at  Wed May 11 17:19:25 2016
From: florian.camerer at orf.at (florian.camerer at orf.at)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 15:19:25 +0000
Subject: [MLA] MQA
In-Reply-To: <0FFF93A2-4A2C-436B-81B3-ACC5120CDFD6@lund.one>
References: <9225A3CC-C8F8-42D8-B374-4EC16BC40DD7@mac.com>
	<7CA06E42-EC6F-4FC2-8D9F-FF2B0BEA218A@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q39BHQX0_WPeq-DFC01tvY0pw3=efg5hk0hmFtmYyy9dg@mail.gmail.com>
	<56D7011F.7090005@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q17k-78_4wBqjT+FR9MbZG3Q5jYzmOnmoyR8sHi60VzjA@mail.gmail.com>
	<315D9F9A-E3F6-45B9-848A-27465272C4DB@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q2fc_swLG7HVjzbMc+rReWmb=zUYyh2ob90UUJj6bjR_Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<4862E4BD-048E-4DF8-AE09-8E0CF3B90FD4@grimmaudio.com>
	<56D89A72.6030109@digido.com>
	<54E38EBD-79AC-4120-A26C-44AD9C449300@grimmaudio.com>	<"06ed9fb8-f9
	5d-a0c4-e07d-7c79d2f5116e"@digido.com>
	<69446CD3-7A95-479F-8A61-4A914D42F063@mac.com>
	<BAAC7455-B634-4085-9C85-C36CAEC83C3D@lund.one>
	<f428afd2-cd0e-f588-5404-30088ad65903@digido.com>
	<534D81B0-C364-4A02-AC8D-90B40B2BD3F1@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<4B456A46-513F-4BA1-BEFF-948CE46D9464@mac.com>
	<c398436c-1dc1-d068-5240-51e89711238b@digido.com>
	<6D94BC82-2986-4EEF-B33B-109AE9DDDB4D@grimmaudio.com>
	<a9acec28-20b8-af3b-376b-19e9fc5b2676@digido.c	om>
	<606B3360-2612-457E-A3F8-63748EFD2345@grimmaudio.com>,
	<0FFF93A2-4A2C-436B-81B3-ACC5120CDFD6@lund.one>
Message-ID: <BCCF2A95C1ABEB44A23A1A5057AB6F07825DAE44@swi52mbx1.orf.local>

Hi guys,

this last mail from Thomas really hits the nail for me.
I never participated in a serious listening test concerning the difference
between 48k and 96k - there were always other things that we listened to,
not the pure 48-96 diff. As Thomas said, this is really hard to do,
and I am certainly not an expert to point to how to do this.
But yes, the HiFi industry is living from the dubious part of all this,
and of more and more new names, processes etc.

In broadcasting, this is all pretty irrelevant. Yes, 24 bit is great for recording
to have more headroom, but for a delivery master, I am happy with correctly
dithered 16 bit actually. Resolution is infinite, and dynamic range with noise shaping is like
in a 19bit system.... The usual noise sources that we have to deal with in broadcasting
these days are magnitudes above all that.
Just yesterday I had a restoration job that illustrates that: probably not a single file
in this session (40min documentary consisting of mostly historic footage) would satisfy
a high quality mastering engineer's criterion - but I just had to get through 14 tracks
of stuff and clean things up to a point where I could say: Ok, we can broadcast this
faithfully. This is my daily business - the New Year#s Concert is a exception.
A great one, like a hair cell massage, but an exception none the less.

What worries me more is the ever increasing use of (heavy) data reduction in production,
something that everyone can hear. Production standards are really on a decline, certainly also
because of smart phones and their increased use in journalism.

Well said and written, Thomas!

Cheers, Florian

________________________________
Von: MLA [mla-bounces at grimmaudio.nl]" im Auftrag von "Thomas Lund [thomas at lund.one]
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 11. Mai 2016 16:08
An: Music Loudness Alliance
Betreff: Re: [MLA] MQA

Hi Bob and Eelco,

What is ?difference?? When testing resampling filters, I?ve taken part in tests using a remote controlled Yamaha grand picked up by mics going only through the analog domain, and the same mics taking an AD-DA detour. Sometimes subjects would prefer the latter, but results were never really significant. Should that happen, and if the latter was preferred, what would it signify? At the end, we need proof, not more claims.

There haven?t even been credible listening experiments showing that we favor 96 kHz sampled recordings over 48 kHz. It?s almost impossible to make experiements in this regards that eliminate confounders - and that?s what the dubious part of the hi-fi industry is living from.

However, with many of these exotic issues, predictability tends to go down as new patches are invented. That in turn drives FUD and takes away attention from what matters. High sample rates can result in unexpected interference products, sometimes even acoustically, and the same will be true with a ?de-blurring? filter and most other processes that alter time/frequency domain parameters. Different, and so what?

It should be in the mastering engineer?s best interest to keep predictability of the downstream path high. Not if and if and if and if...

kind regards,
Thomas



On 11/05/2016, at 09.57, Grimm | Eelco <eelco at grimmaudio.com<mailto:eelco at grimmaudio.com>> wrote:

Hi Bob,

Eelco, Yeah. To my experience I can hear a slight degradation after dithering a 2496 Down to 2096. It's small but enough to bother me. I'm on your side about the sample rate, that the bits are far more important. But I'll keep an open mind and try to listen. Right now it's very difficult... I wonder if I can get the Tidal decoder.

On second thought I must say I am not sure if Tidal offers the full decoding in their own API. The DAC's decimation filter compensation is probably not present. There's still some mist around MQA for me. I should have a chat with Bob Stuart in Paris at the AES to clarify things a bit. But maybe someone here knows the answers to these questions:
- Is in the current implementations the decoding locked to the DAC? Or just the compensation? Can you compensate without decoding an MQA stream?
- Will Tidal not decode MQA itself when the DAC has an MQA decoder built in?
- Is the AD decimation filter 'compensated'? If so, how?

You did some excellent comparison tests. Did you have an MQA digital decoder or just an MQA DAC?

As far as my memory serves me (I'm not good at remembering things in high detail that happened in the past) Alan had access to an MQA encoder so he could select his own track. In any case we had the original side by side with the MQA encoded and decoded versions. They were all in wav files so we could use Alan's DAC. We also listened to an MQA DAC (since part of the decoding trick is to 'compensate' for the DAC's decimation filter anomalies and that's obviously only available in the DAC itsefl). The DAC sounded worse than Alan's reference DAC, so I cannot really say anything about that.

Did Alan agree with your conclusions?

No. It's also a matter of taste probably. But in my ears MQA was 'different' from the original and the decimated version just slightly reduced in quality. In the past months I have learned that the quality of the decimation filters has to be _extremely_ high to not be audible. But I repeat: I cannot draw a conclusion based upon just one listening test.

Comparing MQA to HDCD is not a good analogy....  MQA is far more sophisticated.

Sure! But it is fun that the same idea of packing > Nyquist energy in the lower bits got rejuvenated and I'm just curious to hear what the performance improvement level really is.

Cheers,
Eelco

Hi Bob K,


Dear Bob L. I have written to Bob Stuart but not gotten any response yet. Of course I want to audition MQA, but I'm using a digital crossover, and for stereo I have 4 channels of DAC so I need a digital MQA "decoder". Any thoughts on that?

The Tidal MQA decoder should take care of that.

I listened to MQA at Alan Silverman's studio last AES. Alan was very enthusiastic, but in my ears MQA was not identical to the original. Compared to a downsampled version you loose some and you gain some. MQA is based on the presumption that high sampling is more important than more bits: the HF info is coded into the bottom 4 bits, which effectively means you have to choose between 48 / 24 versus 384 / 20.

We compared:
1. Original 96/24 file
2. Saracon downsampled 48/24
3. MQA non-decoded ("48/20")
4. MQA decoded ("96/20")

For me personally #2 came closest to #1. I have to admit I was a bit disappointed, but it also confirmed my experience that with real high quality decimation filters 48 kHz tracks are hard to distinguish from the high sampling original (as a delivery format that is - during production high sampling is a must). But bits do count. Of course my experience could also be effected by MQA's "de-blur" algorithm, which claims to undo the ripple of the original AD converter (or subsequent decimation filters), but I have too little information about it to know what it does exactly and how it 'sounds'.

I'd certainly love to do furter testing on MQA. And just out of curiosity I'd love to compare it to HDCD - which was a similar process, though just with 44/16 packing space, which is obviously worse than 48/24.

All the best,
Eelco


On 5/9/16 11:24 AM, Robert Ludwig wrote:

Hi Ian,

Just to reiterate, Thomas is 100% right in my opinion, needlessly crushing music is by FAR the #1 item that needs to be fixed for better sound, nothing else matters when you start with unsatisfying music.  However, assuming you?ve got great sounding music, then all the rest comes in to play!

The TIDAL MQA material isn?t officially launched yet, but Bob Stuart said there are people who know the URL that would get one to the beta site.

I don?t know how much you know about MQA, but it is several ?things? under one MQA name.  It is an audio de-blur algorithm, it is a ?folding? or data compressing algorithm folding 384 kHz or less into either a 44.1kHz or 48kHz/24 bit file (which can be streamed at 1 - 1.3MB/sec) and it is a digital copy protection scheme where theoretically you could make a one-off DAC that is coded to your converter and only people with the same converter could hear the music!

As far as MQA examples go, without an MQA DAC you can?t hear the whole thing, but one could hear some of the results of the de-blur process using a normal converter.  I?m trying to see if I can find you a before and after example.  I?ll get back to you.

In the mean time, you can check out Morten Lindberg's 2L label ?test bench?.  Even though he is recording at 352.8kHz, Morten still finds the MQA to create a superior sound.
It?s a mind blower to see a 44.1kHz/24 bit file feed the MQA converter and the resulting FFT goes right out to 176.4kHz!!


http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html
?

Best,
Bob




On May 8, 2016, at 6:20 PM, Ian Shepherd <ian at mastering-media.co.uk>
wrote:


Bob L,

Can you recommend a release that really highlights the benefits of MQA ? Is there a way to tell which files on TIDAL are encoded with MQA ? And is there a converter you?d recommend ?

Although I?m afraid Thomas may well be right, I?m curious to give it a try.

Ian





On 8 May 2016, at 14:27, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com>
wrote:

Guys:

It's a good thing I buy my music either on CD or from HD tracks or similar vendors. I only buy the AAC from the iTunes store when one of my clients wants me to reference a CD that I don't have and I have to listen to it "now". If then I like that music, then I go out and buy it, usually on CD. Amazon has become my major vendor, I pity the brick and mortar stores, though Best Buy seems to be hanging on, they don't have the CD collection I can get online from Amazon. I can then transfer the CD into iTunes and use on my iPhone if I like.
For my highest-sonic-quality personal entertainment on my iPhone I use an incredible app called HFPlayer from Onkyo..... in conjunction with an Oppo DAC that connects via Lightning directly to the iPhone and plays any high res. flac files I have on the iPhone up to 384 kHz/24 bit (and also plays DSD directly into the ESS Sabre DAC in the Oppo DAC).... It beats the crap out of the Astel and Kearn stuff that is so unreliable and uber-expensive.
Bob L., I tried the Astel and Kearn player and got it to crash in 15 minutes, three times before I called it flakey. And their communication with their dealers and reps is exremely shakey. I do not like this company. If they wanted to make a dependable music player, why did they pick the Android operating system?
Also, sorry, Neil Young, this Oppo/iPhone combination beats the Pono because I can also take phone calls  :-(. If I'm jogging or don't want to carry the DAC, the HF Player will downsample the high res material so it will work out of the iPhone's regular headphone jack.
Tip: the Oppo PM-3 headphones are killers! Maybe the most accurate and impacting headphones you can get and carry with you to play music.
If you want to salivate about the best portable playback on earth, in my opinion, read my review of the Oppo pieces and the HF plyaer: visit
http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/katzs-corner-episode-11-oppo-explosion#RiXt3ToxveQ4BMf5.97
     These PM-3 headphones have bass that goes down to the center of the earth, are extremely accurate and tonally neutral....  With a little of the 64-bit EQ in the HF-player you can get even more accurate playback.... and the Oppo DAC/headphone amp is clean and punchy and open....
I have tons of high res flacs that fit in a 64 GB iPhone. If Apple lost for me the purchased AAC music that I have from the iTunes store I'd be pissed, but not that pissed because I just don't have that much money invested in AAC material I bought from the iTunes store. It seems to me that music must be in the iPhone backup that's on my Mac, though, isn't it????  I'm only semi-attached to the cloud. I use icloud for Notes, Calendar, etc., but not for music (I think). I share my iTunes library with a few OSX computers.... maybe that's through iCloud?  Yuk....


Bob K.


On 5/7/16 2:39 PM, Thomas Lund wrote:

Hi Bob,

This casual treatment of tracks fits with what I'm seeing in iTunes. One has to actively disable cloud replacement time after time so iTunes doesn?t steal your known-good tracks. From Tidal I?ve heard how record companies require them to carry only the newest (crappiest) version of a track, and make sure originals aren?t available.

Compared to such demolishment, I?m afraid MQA is a sheer marketing detail which is bound to disappoint consumers just like the myriad of previous attempts at promising ?hidef". 24 bit, 16 bit, 14 bit, 12 bit resolution: Doesn?t matter. Dither or not: Doesn?t matter. Sample rate DSD, 192k, 96, 48, 44.1k: Doesn?t matter. Lossless, 320k, 256k, 128k: Doesn?t matter. The version of a track/squashing is what generally matters.

cheers,
Thomas



On 07/05/2016, at 00.20, Robert Ludwig <gatewaybob at mac.com>
wrote:


http://www.iphonehacks.com/2016/05/apple-music-isnt-deleting-music-libraries.html


I think this article explains it pretty well.  It isn?t as horrible as the blog describes, but it is still taking way too much control for me to ever want to use their service.

BTW, Tidal has 300 albums with MQA so with an MQA converter you can hear streaming 96kHz or even 352.8kHz music!
MQA is really revolutionary.

Best,
Bob L.



On 5/6/16 5:01 PM, Grimm | Eelco wrote:
Dear friends,

If this story is true it is unimaginably horrific.



https://blog.vellumatlanta.com/2016/05/04/apple-stole-my-music-no-seriously/



Can anyone please tell me it is not true?

Cheers,
Eelco

_______________________________________________
MLA mailing list


MLA at grimmaudio.nl
http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl


--
_______________________________________________
MLA mailing list

MLA at grimmaudio.nl
http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
--

If you want good sound on your album, come to
Bob Katz 407-831-0233
DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
Author:
Mastering Audio
Digital Domain Website


No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

Please excuse the weird typing - this message dictated by microphone. Contact me by regular email.
_______________________________________________
MLA mailing list

MLA at grimmaudio.nl
http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
***
Ian Shepherd
Mastering Media Ltd - Audio Mastering, Blu-ray and DVD Excellence

http://twitter.com/ianshepherd


Mastering Media Ltd,
Kemp House, 152 City Road, London, EC1V 2NX
Registered in England and Wales
Company No. 073500450

Tel. +44(0)1487 842498

_______________________________________________
MLA mailing list

MLA at grimmaudio.nl
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_______________________________________________
MLA mailing list


MLA at grimmaudio.nl
http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
--

If you want good sound on your album, come to
Bob Katz 407-831-0233
DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
Author:
Mastering Audio
Digital Domain Website


No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

Please excuse the weird typing - this message dictated by microphone. Contact me by regular email.
_______________________________________________
MLA mailing list

MLA at grimmaudio.nl<mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl

_______________________________________________
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MLA at grimmaudio.nl<mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl

--

If you want good sound on your album, come to
Bob Katz 407-831-0233
DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
Author:
Mastering Audio
Digital Domain Website


No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

Please excuse the weird typing - this message dictated by microphone. Contact me by regular email.
_______________________________________________
MLA mailing list
MLA at grimmaudio.nl<mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl


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From gatewaybob at mac.com  Wed May 11 18:03:29 2016
From: gatewaybob at mac.com (Robert Ludwig)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 12:03:29 -0400
Subject: [MLA] Press release: High resolution music initiative now includes
 Music Streaming
In-Reply-To: <BCCF2A95C1ABEB44A23A1A5057AB6F07825DAE44@swi52mbx1.orf.local>
References: <9225A3CC-C8F8-42D8-B374-4EC16BC40DD7@mac.com>
	<7CA06E42-EC6F-4FC2-8D9F-FF2B0BEA218A@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q39BHQX0_WPeq-DFC01tvY0pw3=efg5hk0hmFtmYyy9dg@mail.gmail.com>
	<56D7011F.7090005@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q17k-78_4wBqjT+FR9MbZG3Q5jYzmOnmoyR8sHi60VzjA@mail.gmail.com>
	<315D9F9A-E3F6-45B9-848A-27465272C4DB@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q2fc_swLG7HVjzbMc+rReWmb=zUYyh2ob90UUJj6bjR_Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<4862E4BD-048E-4DF8-AE09-8E0CF3B90FD4@grimmaudio.com>
	<56D89A72.6030109@digido.com>
	<54E38EBD-79AC-4120-A26C-44AD9C449300@grimmaudio.com>
	<"06ed9fb8-f9	5d-a0c4-e07d-7c79d2f5116e"@digido.com>
	<69446CD3-7A95-479F-8A61-4A914D42F063@mac.com>
	<BAAC7455-B634-4085-9C85-C36CAEC83C3D@lund.one>
	<f428afd2-cd0e-f588-5404-30088ad65903@digido.com>
	<534D81B0-C364-4A02-AC8D-90B40B2BD3F1@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<4B456A46-513F-4BA1-BEFF-948CE46D9464@mac.com>
	<c398436c-1dc1-d068-5240-51e89711238b@digido.com>
	<6D94BC82-2986-4EEF-B33B-109AE9DDDB4D@grimmaudio.com>
	<a9acec28-20b8-af3b-376b-19e9fc5b2676@digido.c> <om@mac.com>
	<606B3360-2612-457E-A3F8-63748EFD2345@grimmaudio.com>
	<0FFF93A2-4A2C-436B-81B3-ACC5120CDFD6@lund.one>
	<BCCF2A95C1ABEB44A23A1A5057AB6F07825DAE44@swi52mbx1.orf.local>
Message-ID: <F1EC7A48-C0DD-47BF-9971-00FA10C08CD7@mac.com>

Hi all,
BTW, I don?t know anything about MPEG 4 Audio SLS.
best,
Bob L.

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
May 11, 2016

HI-RES MUSIC INITIATIVE EXPANDS
TO INCLUDE MUSIC STREAMING SERVICES

WASHINGTON ? Music streaming is officially going high resolution. The industry?s official logo mark for Hi-Res MUSIC ? previously applicable primarily to high-quality digital download services ? will soon be available for adoption by music streaming services as well, according to an announcement today from the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA) and its member companies Universal Music Group, Sony Music Entertainment, and Warner Music Group, in cooperation with the Recording Academy Producers & Engineers Wing, the American Association of Independent Music (A2IM), and DEG: The Digital Entertainment Group.

The Hi-Res MUSIC logo and accompanying definition, originally announced in June 2015 by the RIAA on behalf of its member labels (see here<http://www.riaa.com/high-resolution-audio-initiative-gets-major-boost-with-new-hi-res-music-logo-and-branding-materials-for-digital-retailers/ <http://www.riaa.com/high-resolution-audio-initiative-gets-major-boost-with-new-hi-res-music-logo-and-branding-materials-for-digital-retailers/>>), primarily focused on the various types of digital files and download services which met the definition?s requirements. This program, which has been adopted by nearly a dozen download services offering high-resolution music (see here<http://www.riaa.com/hi-res-music-logo-widely-adopted-as-official-measure-of-highest-quality-digital-recordings/ <http://www.riaa.com/hi-res-music-logo-widely-adopted-as-official-measure-of-highest-quality-digital-recordings/>>), is now being expanded to cover streaming services that utilize new technologies that meet the quality standards set out in the original Hi-Res MUSIC definition. These technologies ensure that the listener hears music that preserves, without loss of information, recordings from sources that achieve a minimum of 48kHz/20 bit resolution.

?The expansion of the Hi-Res MUSIC definition to encompass streaming technologies reflects the continued evolution of the marketplace to deliver high resolution music to fans,? said David Hughes, Chief Technology Officer, RIAA.  ?We are thrilled that the Hi-Res MUSIC logo will allow streaming enthusiasts to easily identify higher quality versions of their favorite recordings via services that use these approved technologies. It?s the logical next step, one embraced by music labels large and small, that will provide an optimal listening experience to this growing consumer segment.?

A number of data packing technologies are being developed that can support the streaming of hi-res music files to consumers in a more efficient manner, including MQA (Master Quality Authenticated) and MPEG 4 Audio SLS. These and other approved technologies will enable licensed services to display the Hi-Res MUSIC logo mark on their landing page or next to an individual album or track. If the resolution of a recording falls below the required minimum standards of the Hi-Res MUSIC definition at any time, the user will be made aware of this change.
?We are looking forward to the Hi-Res MUSIC logo being associated with services that adopt MQA,? said Bob Stuart, Chairman of MQA. ?MQA is a revolutionary new technology which enables the sound quality of hi-res music with the convenience of efficient streaming, something that wasn?t possible even a few short years ago.?
The expanded Hi-Res MUSIC logo requirements for streaming will be available to interested parties on June 1. For licensing or related inquiries please contact David Hughes at dhughes at riaa.com <mailto:dhughes at riaa.com><mailto:dhughes at riaa.com <mailto:dhughes at riaa.com>>. For press inquiries, please contact Cara Duckworth Weiblinger at cduckworth at riaa.com <mailto:cduckworth at riaa.com><mailto:cduckworth at riaa.com <mailto:cduckworth at riaa.com>>.

BACKGROUND ON HI-RES MUSIC INITIATIVE

In June 2015, RIAA, in cooperation with DEG: The Digital Entertainment Group and The Recording Academy Producers & Engineers Wing, unveiled<http://www.riaa.com/high-resolution-audio-initiative-gets-major-boost-with-new-hi-res-music-logo-and-branding-materials-for-digital-retailers/ <http://www.riaa.com/high-resolution-audio-initiative-gets-major-boost-with-new-hi-res-music-logo-and-branding-materials-for-digital-retailers/>> a new Hi-Res MUSIC logo to help music enthusiasts easily identify the highest quality digital audio files and the retailers that offer them. The logo was specifically designed to complement the Hi-Res AUDIO logo licensed by the Japan Audio Society for use on compatible electronic hardware devices that support Hi-Res MUSIC services. In November 2015, RIAA subsequently announced<http://www.riaa.com/hi-res-music-logo-widely-adopted-as-official-measure-of-highest-quality-digital-recordings/ <http://www.riaa.com/hi-res-music-logo-widely-adopted-as-official-measure-of-highest-quality-digital-recordings/>> the successful adoption of the Hi-Res MUSIC logo mark by various digital retailers.

# # #

The Recording Industry Association of America? (RIAA) is the trade organization that supports and promotes the creative and financial vitality of the major music companies. Its members comprise the most vibrant record industry in the world, investing in great artists to help them reach their potential and connect to their fans. Nearly 85% of all legitimate recorded music produced and sold in the United States is created, manufactured and/or distributed by RIAA members.


Contacts:
Cara Duckworth Weiblinger
Jonathan Lamy
Liz Kennedy
202/775-0101
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From bobkatz at digido.com  Wed May 11 19:50:03 2016
From: bobkatz at digido.com (Bob Katz)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 13:50:03 -0400
Subject: [MLA] MQA
In-Reply-To: <01BDF114-68E8-4839-903D-007FAB6AA3C4@grimmaudio.com>
References: <9225A3CC-C8F8-42D8-B374-4EC16BC40DD7@mac.com>
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	<54E38EBD-79AC-4120-A26C-44AD9C449300@grimmaudio.com> <"06ed9fb8-f9
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	<69446CD3-7A95-479F-8A61-4A914D42F063@mac.com>
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	<f428afd2-cd0e-f588-5404-30088ad65903@digido.com>
	<534D81B0-C364-4A02-AC8D-90B40B2BD3F1@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<4B456A46-513F-4BA1-BEFF-948CE46D9464@mac.com>
	<c398436c-1dc1-d068-5240-51e89711238b@digido.com>
	<6D94BC82-2986-4EEF-B33B-109AE9DDDB4D@grimmaudio.com>
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Message-ID: <622d7f53-8470-cb84-b2d5-474445536ef1@digido.com>

Guys, isolating variables is really difficult. If you leaving to 
conclusions was an Olympic event, audio engineers would get the medal. I 
have my own conclusions about sample rate after many many months of 
testing, but it's been impossible to engineer a blind test that's 
reliable. So we go on, and we hope for the best.

I like the "idea" of MQA at least as an interim format until the 
Internet gets faster, or I can't hear anymore, whichever comes first :-)



Bob



On 5/11/16 11:06 AM, Grimm | Eelco wrote:
> Hi Thomas,
>
>> What is ?difference?? When testing resampling filters, I?ve taken part in tests using a remote controlled Yamaha grand picked up by mics going only through the analog domain, and the same mics taking an AD-DA detour.
> Mark that in an AD-DA path jitter is largely compensated. In a DA-AD chain (re-recording a track via a converter for instance) relevant jitter is even compensated almost completely. So in such a setup you're only testing the distortion of the ADDA chain, the quality of the decimation filters and the sigma delta modulators, plus the analogue path quality. Unfortunately jitter is one of the main issues with digital audio sound quality and it is not taken into the equation in a test like this.
>
> In any case I agree that 48k can sound extremely well and that we should first solve the most significant problems...
>
> Cheers,
> Eelco
>
>> Sometimes subjects would prefer the latter, but results were never really significant. Should that happen, and if the latter was preferred, what would it signify? At the end, we need proof, not more claims.
>>
>> There haven?t even been credible listening experiments showing that we favor 96 kHz sampled recordings over 48 kHz. It?s almost impossible to make experiements in this regards that eliminate confounders - and that?s what the dubious part of the hi-fi industry is living from.
>>
>> However, with many of these exotic issues, predictability tends to go down as new patches are invented. That in turn drives FUD and takes away attention from what matters. High sample rates can result in unexpected interference products, sometimes even acoustically, and the same will be true with a ?de-blurring? filter and most other processes that alter time/frequency domain parameters. Different, and so what?
>>
>> It should be in the mastering engineer?s best interest to keep predictability of the downstream path high. Not if and if and if and if...
>>
>> kind regards,
>> Thomas
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 11/05/2016, at 09.57, Grimm | Eelco <eelco at grimmaudio.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Bob,
>>>
>>>> Eelco, Yeah. To my experience I can hear a slight degradation after dithering a 2496 Down to 2096. It's small but enough to bother me. I'm on your side about the sample rate, that the bits are far more important. But I'll keep an open mind and try to listen. Right now it's very difficult... I wonder if I can get the Tidal decoder.
>>> On second thought I must say I am not sure if Tidal offers the full decoding in their own API. The DAC's decimation filter compensation is probably not present. There's still some mist around MQA for me. I should have a chat with Bob Stuart in Paris at the AES to clarify things a bit. But maybe someone here knows the answers to these questions:
>>> - Is in the current implementations the decoding locked to the DAC? Or just the compensation? Can you compensate without decoding an MQA stream?
>>> - Will Tidal not decode MQA itself when the DAC has an MQA decoder built in?
>>> - Is the AD decimation filter 'compensated'? If so, how?
>>>
>>>> You did some excellent comparison tests. Did you have an MQA digital decoder or just an MQA DAC?
>>> As far as my memory serves me (I'm not good at remembering things in high detail that happened in the past) Alan had access to an MQA encoder so he could select his own track. In any case we had the original side by side with the MQA encoded and decoded versions. They were all in wav files so we could use Alan's DAC. We also listened to an MQA DAC (since part of the decoding trick is to 'compensate' for the DAC's decimation filter anomalies and that's obviously only available in the DAC itsefl). The DAC sounded worse than Alan's reference DAC, so I cannot really say anything about that.
>>>
>>>> Did Alan agree with your conclusions?
>>> No. It's also a matter of taste probably. But in my ears MQA was 'different' from the original and the decimated version just slightly reduced in quality. In the past months I have learned that the quality of the decimation filters has to be _extremely_ high to not be audible. But I repeat: I cannot draw a conclusion based upon just one listening test.
>>>
>>>> Comparing MQA to HDCD is not a good analogy....  MQA is far more sophisticated.
>>> Sure! But it is fun that the same idea of packing > Nyquist energy in the lower bits got rejuvenated and I'm just curious to hear what the performance improvement level really is.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Eelco
>>>
>>>>> Hi Bob K,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Bob L. I have written to Bob Stuart but not gotten any response yet. Of course I want to audition MQA, but I'm using a digital crossover, and for stereo I have 4 channels of DAC so I need a digital MQA "decoder". Any thoughts on that?
>>>>>>
>>>>> The Tidal MQA decoder should take care of that.
>>>>>
>>>>> I listened to MQA at Alan Silverman's studio last AES. Alan was very enthusiastic, but in my ears MQA was not identical to the original. Compared to a downsampled version you loose some and you gain some. MQA is based on the presumption that high sampling is more important than more bits: the HF info is coded into the bottom 4 bits, which effectively means you have to choose between 48 / 24 versus 384 / 20.
>>>>>
>>>>> We compared:
>>>>> 1. Original 96/24 file
>>>>> 2. Saracon downsampled 48/24
>>>>> 3. MQA non-decoded ("48/20")
>>>>> 4. MQA decoded ("96/20")
>>>>>
>>>>> For me personally #2 came closest to #1. I have to admit I was a bit disappointed, but it also confirmed my experience that with real high quality decimation filters 48 kHz tracks are hard to distinguish from the high sampling original (as a delivery format that is - during production high sampling is a must). But bits do count. Of course my experience could also be effected by MQA's "de-blur" algorithm, which claims to undo the ripple of the original AD converter (or subsequent decimation filters), but I have too little information about it to know what it does exactly and how it 'sounds'.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd certainly love to do furter testing on MQA. And just out of curiosity I'd love to compare it to HDCD - which was a similar process, though just with 44/16 packing space, which is obviously worse than 48/24.
>>>>>
>>>>> All the best,
>>>>> Eelco
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/9/16 11:24 AM, Robert Ludwig wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Ian,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just to reiterate, Thomas is 100% right in my opinion, needlessly crushing music is by FAR the #1 item that needs to be fixed for better sound, nothing else matters when you start with unsatisfying music.  However, assuming you?ve got great sounding music, then all the rest comes in to play!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The TIDAL MQA material isn?t officially launched yet, but Bob Stuart said there are people who know the URL that would get one to the beta site.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don?t know how much you know about MQA, but it is several ?things? under one MQA name.  It is an audio de-blur algorithm, it is a ?folding? or data compressing algorithm folding 384 kHz or less into either a 44.1kHz or 48kHz/24 bit file (which can be streamed at 1 - 1.3MB/sec) and it is a digital copy protection scheme where theoretically you could make a one-off DAC that is coded to your converter and only people with the same converter could hear the music!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As far as MQA examples go, without an MQA DAC you can?t hear the whole thing, but one could hear some of the results of the de-blur process using a normal converter.  I?m trying to see if I can find you a before and after example.  I?ll get back to you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the mean time, you can check out Morten Lindberg's 2L label ?test bench?.  Even though he is recording at 352.8kHz, Morten still finds the MQA to create a superior sound.
>>>>>>> It?s a mind blower to see a 44.1kHz/24 bit file feed the MQA converter and the resulting FFT goes right out to 176.4kHz!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html
>>>>>>> ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On May 8, 2016, at 6:20 PM, Ian Shepherd <ian at mastering-media.co.uk>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bob L,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Can you recommend a release that really highlights the benefits of MQA ? Is there a way to tell which files on TIDAL are encoded with MQA ? And is there a converter you?d recommend ?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Although I?m afraid Thomas may well be right, I?m curious to give it a try.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ian
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 8 May 2016, at 14:27, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Guys:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's a good thing I buy my music either on CD or from HD tracks or similar vendors. I only buy the AAC from the iTunes store when one of my clients wants me to reference a CD that I don't have and I have to listen to it "now". If then I like that music, then I go out and buy it, usually on CD. Amazon has become my major vendor, I pity the brick and mortar stores, though Best Buy seems to be hanging on, they don't have the CD collection I can get online from Amazon. I can then transfer the CD into iTunes and use on my iPhone if I like.
>>>>>>>>> For my highest-sonic-quality personal entertainment on my iPhone I use an incredible app called HFPlayer from Onkyo..... in conjunction with an Oppo DAC that connects via Lightning directly to the iPhone and plays any high res. flac files I have on the iPhone up to 384 kHz/24 bit (and also plays DSD directly into the ESS Sabre DAC in the Oppo DAC).... It beats the crap out of the Astel and Kearn stuff that is so unreliable and uber-expensive.
>>>>>>>>> Bob L., I tried the Astel and Kearn player and got it to crash in 15 minutes, three times before I called it flakey. And their communication with their dealers and reps is exremely shakey. I do not like this company. If they wanted to make a dependable music player, why did they pick the Android operating system?
>>>>>>>>> Also, sorry, Neil Young, this Oppo/iPhone combination beats the Pono because I can also take phone calls  :-(. If I'm jogging or don't want to carry the DAC, the HF Player will downsample the high res material so it will work out of the iPhone's regular headphone jack.
>>>>>>>>> Tip: the Oppo PM-3 headphones are killers! Maybe the most accurate and impacting headphones you can get and carry with you to play music.
>>>>>>>>> If you want to salivate about the best portable playback on earth, in my opinion, read my review of the Oppo pieces and the HF plyaer: visit
>>>>>>>>> http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/katzs-corner-episode-11-oppo-explosion#RiXt3ToxveQ4BMf5.97
>>>>>>>>>       These PM-3 headphones have bass that goes down to the center of the earth, are extremely accurate and tonally neutral....  With a little of the 64-bit EQ in the HF-player you can get even more accurate playback.... and the Oppo DAC/headphone amp is clean and punchy and open....
>>>>>>>>> I have tons of high res flacs that fit in a 64 GB iPhone. If Apple lost for me the purchased AAC music that I have from the iTunes store I'd be pissed, but not that pissed because I just don't have that much money invested in AAC material I bought from the iTunes store. It seems to me that music must be in the iPhone backup that's on my Mac, though, isn't it????  I'm only semi-attached to the cloud. I use icloud for Notes, Calendar, etc., but not for music (I think). I share my iTunes library with a few OSX computers.... maybe that's through iCloud?  Yuk....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bob K.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 5/7/16 2:39 PM, Thomas Lund wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Bob,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This casual treatment of tracks fits with what I'm seeing in iTunes. One has to actively disable cloud replacement time after time so iTunes doesn?t steal your known-good tracks. From Tidal I?ve heard how record companies require them to carry only the newest (crappiest) version of a track, and make sure originals aren?t available.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Compared to such demolishment, I?m afraid MQA is a sheer marketing detail which is bound to disappoint consumers just like the myriad of previous attempts at promising ?hidef". 24 bit, 16 bit, 14 bit, 12 bit resolution: Doesn?t matter. Dither or not: Doesn?t matter. Sample rate DSD, 192k, 96, 48, 44.1k: Doesn?t matter. Lossless, 320k, 256k, 128k: Doesn?t matter. The version of a track/squashing is what generally matters.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> cheers,
>>>>>>>>>> Thomas
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 07/05/2016, at 00.20, Robert Ludwig <gatewaybob at mac.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.iphonehacks.com/2016/05/apple-music-isnt-deleting-music-libraries.html
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I think this article explains it pretty well.  It isn?t as horrible as the blog describes, but it is still taking way too much control for me to ever want to use their service.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> BTW, Tidal has 300 albums with MQA so with an MQA converter you can hear streaming 96kHz or even 352.8kHz music!
>>>>>>>>>>> MQA is really revolutionary.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>>> Bob L.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/6/16 5:01 PM, Grimm | Eelco wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Dear friends,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If this story is true it is unimaginably horrific.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://blog.vellumatlanta.com/2016/05/04/apple-stole-my-music-no-seriously/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Can anyone please tell me it is not true?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>> Eelco
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>>>>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>>>>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you want good sound on your album, come to
>>>>>>>>> Bob Katz 407-831-0233
>>>>>>>>> DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
>>>>>>>>> Author:
>>>>>>>>> Mastering Audio
>>>>>>>>> Digital Domain Website
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
>>>>>>>>> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Please excuse the weird typing - this message dictated by microphone. Contact me by regular email.
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>>>> ***
>>>>>>>> Ian Shepherd
>>>>>>>> Mastering Media Ltd - Audio Mastering, Blu-ray and DVD Excellence
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/ianshepherd
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mastering Media Ltd,
>>>>>>>> Kemp House, 152 City Road, London, EC1V 2NX
>>>>>>>> Registered in England and Wales
>>>>>>>> Company No. 073500450
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tel. +44(0)1487 842498
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you want good sound on your album, come to
>>>>>> Bob Katz 407-831-0233
>>>>>> DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
>>>>>> Author:
>>>>>> Mastering Audio
>>>>>> Digital Domain Website
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
>>>>>> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please excuse the weird typing - this message dictated by microphone. Contact me by regular email.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>>>>
>>>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>>>
>>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>>> -- 
>>>>
>>>> If you want good sound on your album, come to
>>>> Bob Katz 407-831-0233
>>>> DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
>>>> Author:
>>>> Mastering Audio
>>>> Digital Domain Website
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
>>>> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>>>>
>>>> Please excuse the weird typing - this message dictated by microphone. Contact me by regular email.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> MLA mailing list
>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl

-- 

If you want good sound on your album, come to Bob Katz 407-831-0233 
DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO Author: *Mastering Audio *Digital Domain 
Website <http://www.digido.com/> No trees were killed in the sending of 
this message. However a large number of electrons were terribly 
inconvenienced.*Please excuse the weird typing - this message dictated 
by microphone. Contact me by regular email. *

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From kevin.gross at comcast.net  Wed May 11 20:15:34 2016
From: kevin.gross at comcast.net (Kevin Gross)
Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 12:15:34 -0600
Subject: [MLA] MQA
In-Reply-To: <622d7f53-8470-cb84-b2d5-474445536ef1@digido.com>
References: <9225A3CC-C8F8-42D8-B374-4EC16BC40DD7@mac.com>
	<315D9F9A-E3F6-45B9-848A-27465272C4DB@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q2fc_swLG7HVjzbMc+rReWmb=zUYyh2ob90UUJj6bjR_Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<4862E4BD-048E-4DF8-AE09-8E0CF3B90FD4@grimmaudio.com>
	<56D89A72.6030109@digido.com>
	<54E38EBD-79AC-4120-A26C-44AD9C449300@grimmaudio.com>
	<69446CD3-7A95-479F-8A61-4A914D42F063@mac.com>
	<BAAC7455-B634-4085-9C85-C36CAEC83C3D@lund.one>
	<f428afd2-cd0e-f588-5404-30088ad65903@digido.com>
	<534D81B0-C364-4A02-AC8D-90B40B2BD3F1@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<4B456A46-513F-4BA1-BEFF-948CE46D9464@mac.com>
	<c398436c-1dc1-d068-5240-51e89711238b@digido.com>
	<6D94BC82-2986-4EEF-B33B-109AE9DDDB4D@grimmaudio.com>
	<606B3360-2612-457E-A3F8-63748EFD2345@grimmaudio.com>
	<0FFF93A2-4A2C-436B-81B3-ACC5120CDFD6@lund.one>
	<01BDF114-68E8-4839-903D-007FAB6AA3C4@grimmaudio.com>
	<622d7f53-8470-cb84-b2d5-474445536ef1@digido.com>
Message-ID: <CALw1_Q3h5MfGZNsbB6zgjOuib46rZhMJ6j_LuMpG2eb-09K=7w@mail.gmail.com>

Several years ago we reached the point of diminishing returns for
improvements to fundamental digital audio technology. I think this has been
acknowledged in this thread. Technical opportunities for improved audio
quality are elsewhere. Marketing opportunities are everywhere. Let's
get back to loudness issues.

On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 11:50 AM, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com> wrote:

> Guys, isolating variables is really difficult. If you leaving to
> conclusions was an Olympic event, audio engineers would get the medal. I
> have my own conclusions about sample rate after many many months of
> testing, but it's been impossible to engineer a blind test that's reliable.
> So we go on, and we hope for the best.
>
> I like the "idea" of MQA at least as an interim format until the Internet
> gets faster, or I can't hear anymore, whichever comes first :-)
>
>
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> On 5/11/16 11:06 AM, Grimm | Eelco wrote:
>
> Hi Thomas,
>
>
> What is ?difference?? When testing resampling filters, I?ve taken part in tests using a remote controlled Yamaha grand picked up by mics going only through the analog domain, and the same mics taking an AD-DA detour.
>
> Mark that in an AD-DA path jitter is largely compensated. In a DA-AD chain (re-recording a track via a converter for instance) relevant jitter is even compensated almost completely. So in such a setup you're only testing the distortion of the ADDA chain, the quality of the decimation filters and the sigma delta modulators, plus the analogue path quality. Unfortunately jitter is one of the main issues with digital audio sound quality and it is not taken into the equation in a test like this.
>
> In any case I agree that 48k can sound extremely well and that we should first solve the most significant problems...
>
> Cheers,
> Eelco
>
>
> Sometimes subjects would prefer the latter, but results were never really significant. Should that happen, and if the latter was preferred, what would it signify? At the end, we need proof, not more claims.
>
> There haven?t even been credible listening experiments showing that we favor 96 kHz sampled recordings over 48 kHz. It?s almost impossible to make experiements in this regards that eliminate confounders - and that?s what the dubious part of the hi-fi industry is living from.
>
> However, with many of these exotic issues, predictability tends to go down as new patches are invented. That in turn drives FUD and takes away attention from what matters. High sample rates can result in unexpected interference products, sometimes even acoustically, and the same will be true with a ?de-blurring? filter and most other processes that alter time/frequency domain parameters. Different, and so what?
>
> It should be in the mastering engineer?s best interest to keep predictability of the downstream path high. Not if and if and if and if...
>
> kind regards,
> Thomas
>
>
>
>
> On 11/05/2016, at 09.57, Grimm | Eelco <eelco at grimmaudio.com> <eelco at grimmaudio.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Bob,
>
>
> Eelco, Yeah. To my experience I can hear a slight degradation after dithering a 2496 Down to 2096. It's small but enough to bother me. I'm on your side about the sample rate, that the bits are far more important. But I'll keep an open mind and try to listen. Right now it's very difficult... I wonder if I can get the Tidal decoder.
>
> On second thought I must say I am not sure if Tidal offers the full decoding in their own API. The DAC's decimation filter compensation is probably not present. There's still some mist around MQA for me. I should have a chat with Bob Stuart in Paris at the AES to clarify things a bit. But maybe someone here knows the answers to these questions:
> - Is in the current implementations the decoding locked to the DAC? Or just the compensation? Can you compensate without decoding an MQA stream?
> - Will Tidal not decode MQA itself when the DAC has an MQA decoder built in?
> - Is the AD decimation filter 'compensated'? If so, how?
>
>
> You did some excellent comparison tests. Did you have an MQA digital decoder or just an MQA DAC?
>
> As far as my memory serves me (I'm not good at remembering things in high detail that happened in the past) Alan had access to an MQA encoder so he could select his own track. In any case we had the original side by side with the MQA encoded and decoded versions. They were all in wav files so we could use Alan's DAC. We also listened to an MQA DAC (since part of the decoding trick is to 'compensate' for the DAC's decimation filter anomalies and that's obviously only available in the DAC itsefl). The DAC sounded worse than Alan's reference DAC, so I cannot really say anything about that.
>
>
> Did Alan agree with your conclusions?
>
> No. It's also a matter of taste probably. But in my ears MQA was 'different' from the original and the decimated version just slightly reduced in quality. In the past months I have learned that the quality of the decimation filters has to be _extremely_ high to not be audible. But I repeat: I cannot draw a conclusion based upon just one listening test.
>
>
> Comparing MQA to HDCD is not a good analogy....  MQA is far more sophisticated.
>
> Sure! But it is fun that the same idea of packing > Nyquist energy in the lower bits got rejuvenated and I'm just curious to hear what the performance improvement level really is.
>
> Cheers,
> Eelco
>
>
> Hi Bob K,
>
>
>
> Dear Bob L. I have written to Bob Stuart but not gotten any response yet. Of course I want to audition MQA, but I'm using a digital crossover, and for stereo I have 4 channels of DAC so I need a digital MQA "decoder". Any thoughts on that?
>
>
> The Tidal MQA decoder should take care of that.
>
> I listened to MQA at Alan Silverman's studio last AES. Alan was very enthusiastic, but in my ears MQA was not identical to the original. Compared to a downsampled version you loose some and you gain some. MQA is based on the presumption that high sampling is more important than more bits: the HF info is coded into the bottom 4 bits, which effectively means you have to choose between 48 / 24 versus 384 / 20.
>
> We compared:
> 1. Original 96/24 file
> 2. Saracon downsampled 48/24
> 3. MQA non-decoded ("48/20")
> 4. MQA decoded ("96/20")
>
> For me personally #2 came closest to #1. I have to admit I was a bit disappointed, but it also confirmed my experience that with real high quality decimation filters 48 kHz tracks are hard to distinguish from the high sampling original (as a delivery format that is - during production high sampling is a must). But bits do count. Of course my experience could also be effected by MQA's "de-blur" algorithm, which claims to undo the ripple of the original AD converter (or subsequent decimation filters), but I have too little information about it to know what it does exactly and how it 'sounds'.
>
> I'd certainly love to do furter testing on MQA. And just out of curiosity I'd love to compare it to HDCD - which was a similar process, though just with 44/16 packing space, which is obviously worse than 48/24.
>
> All the best,
> Eelco
>
>
>
> On 5/9/16 11:24 AM, Robert Ludwig wrote:
>
>
> Hi Ian,
>
> Just to reiterate, Thomas is 100% right in my opinion, needlessly crushing music is by FAR the #1 item that needs to be fixed for better sound, nothing else matters when you start with unsatisfying music.  However, assuming you?ve got great sounding music, then all the rest comes in to play!
>
> The TIDAL MQA material isn?t officially launched yet, but Bob Stuart said there are people who know the URL that would get one to the beta site.
>
> I don?t know how much you know about MQA, but it is several ?things? under one MQA name.  It is an audio de-blur algorithm, it is a ?folding? or data compressing algorithm folding 384 kHz or less into either a 44.1kHz or 48kHz/24 bit file (which can be streamed at 1 - 1.3MB/sec) and it is a digital copy protection scheme where theoretically you could make a one-off DAC that is coded to your converter and only people with the same converter could hear the music!
>
> As far as MQA examples go, without an MQA DAC you can?t hear the whole thing, but one could hear some of the results of the de-blur process using a normal converter.  I?m trying to see if I can find you a before and after example.  I?ll get back to you.
>
> In the mean time, you can check out Morten Lindberg's 2L label ?test bench?.  Even though he is recording at 352.8kHz, Morten still finds the MQA to create a superior sound.
> It?s a mind blower to see a 44.1kHz/24 bit file feed the MQA converter and the resulting FFT goes right out to 176.4kHz!!
>
> http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html
> ?
>
> Best,
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>
> On May 8, 2016, at 6:20 PM, Ian Shepherd <ian at mastering-media.co.uk> <ian at mastering-media.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>
> Bob L,
>
> Can you recommend a release that really highlights the benefits of MQA ? Is there a way to tell which files on TIDAL are encoded with MQA ? And is there a converter you?d recommend ?
>
> Although I?m afraid Thomas may well be right, I?m curious to give it a try.
>
> Ian
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 8 May 2016, at 14:27, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com> <bobkatz at digido.com>
> wrote:
>
> Guys:
>
> It's a good thing I buy my music either on CD or from HD tracks or similar vendors. I only buy the AAC from the iTunes store when one of my clients wants me to reference a CD that I don't have and I have to listen to it "now". If then I like that music, then I go out and buy it, usually on CD. Amazon has become my major vendor, I pity the brick and mortar stores, though Best Buy seems to be hanging on, they don't have the CD collection I can get online from Amazon. I can then transfer the CD into iTunes and use on my iPhone if I like.
> For my highest-sonic-quality personal entertainment on my iPhone I use an incredible app called HFPlayer from Onkyo..... in conjunction with an Oppo DAC that connects via Lightning directly to the iPhone and plays any high res. flac files I have on the iPhone up to 384 kHz/24 bit (and also plays DSD directly into the ESS Sabre DAC in the Oppo DAC).... It beats the crap out of the Astel and Kearn stuff that is so unreliable and uber-expensive.
> Bob L., I tried the Astel and Kearn player and got it to crash in 15 minutes, three times before I called it flakey. And their communication with their dealers and reps is exremely shakey. I do not like this company. If they wanted to make a dependable music player, why did they pick the Android operating system?
> Also, sorry, Neil Young, this Oppo/iPhone combination beats the Pono because I can also take phone calls  :-(. If I'm jogging or don't want to carry the DAC, the HF Player will downsample the high res material so it will work out of the iPhone's regular headphone jack.
> Tip: the Oppo PM-3 headphones are killers! Maybe the most accurate and impacting headphones you can get and carry with you to play music.
> If you want to salivate about the best portable playback on earth, in my opinion, read my review of the Oppo pieces and the HF plyaer: visit http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/katzs-corner-episode-11-oppo-explosion#RiXt3ToxveQ4BMf5.97
>      These PM-3 headphones have bass that goes down to the center of the earth, are extremely accurate and tonally neutral....  With a little of the 64-bit EQ in the HF-player you can get even more accurate playback.... and the Oppo DAC/headphone amp is clean and punchy and open....
> I have tons of high res flacs that fit in a 64 GB iPhone. If Apple lost for me the purchased AAC music that I have from the iTunes store I'd be pissed, but not that pissed because I just don't have that much money invested in AAC material I bought from the iTunes store. It seems to me that music must be in the iPhone backup that's on my Mac, though, isn't it????  I'm only semi-attached to the cloud. I use icloud for Notes, Calendar, etc., but not for music (I think). I share my iTunes library with a few OSX computers.... maybe that's through iCloud?  Yuk....
>
>
> Bob K.
>
>
> On 5/7/16 2:39 PM, Thomas Lund wrote:
>
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> This casual treatment of tracks fits with what I'm seeing in iTunes. One has to actively disable cloud replacement time after time so iTunes doesn?t steal your known-good tracks. From Tidal I?ve heard how record companies require them to carry only the newest (crappiest) version of a track, and make sure originals aren?t available.
>
> Compared to such demolishment, I?m afraid MQA is a sheer marketing detail which is bound to disappoint consumers just like the myriad of previous attempts at promising ?hidef". 24 bit, 16 bit, 14 bit, 12 bit resolution: Doesn?t matter. Dither or not: Doesn?t matter. Sample rate DSD, 192k, 96, 48, 44.1k: Doesn?t matter. Lossless, 320k, 256k, 128k: Doesn?t matter. The version of a track/squashing is what generally matters.
>
> cheers,
> Thomas
>
>
>
>
> On 07/05/2016, at 00.20, Robert Ludwig <gatewaybob at mac.com> <gatewaybob at mac.com>
> wrote:
>
> http://www.iphonehacks.com/2016/05/apple-music-isnt-deleting-music-libraries.html
>
>
> I think this article explains it pretty well.  It isn?t as horrible as the blog describes, but it is still taking way too much control for me to ever want to use their service.
>
> BTW, Tidal has 300 albums with MQA so with an MQA converter you can hear streaming 96kHz or even 352.8kHz music!
> MQA is really revolutionary.
>
> Best,
> Bob L.
>
>
>
> On 5/6/16 5:01 PM, Grimm | Eelco wrote:
> Dear friends,
>
> If this story is true it is unimaginably horrific.
>
>
> https://blog.vellumatlanta.com/2016/05/04/apple-stole-my-music-no-seriously/
>
>
>
> Can anyone please tell me it is not true?
>
> Cheers,
> Eelco
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
>
> MLA at grimmaudio.nlhttp://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>
>
> --
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nlhttp://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>
> --
>
> If you want good sound on your album, come to
> Bob Katz 407-831-0233
> DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
> Author:
> Mastering Audio
> Digital Domain Website
>
>
> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>
> Please excuse the weird typing - this message dictated by microphone. Contact me by regular email.
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nlhttp://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>
> ***
> Ian Shepherd
> Mastering Media Ltd - Audio Mastering, Blu-ray and DVD Excellence
> http://twitter.com/ianshepherd
>
>
> Mastering Media Ltd,
> Kemp House, 152 City Road, London, EC1V 2NX
> Registered in England and Wales
> Company No. 073500450
>
> Tel. +44(0)1487 842498
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nlhttp://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
>
> MLA at grimmaudio.nlhttp://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>
> --
>
> If you want good sound on your album, come to
> Bob Katz 407-831-0233
> DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
> Author:
> Mastering Audio
> Digital Domain Website
>
>
> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>
> Please excuse the weird typing - this message dictated by microphone. Contact me by regular email.
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nlhttp://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nlhttp://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>
> --
>
> If you want good sound on your album, come to
> Bob Katz 407-831-0233
> DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
> Author:
> Mastering Audio
> Digital Domain Website
>
>
> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>
> Please excuse the weird typing - this message dictated by microphone. Contact me by regular email.
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing listMLA at grimmaudio.nlhttp://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing listMLA at grimmaudio.nlhttp://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing listMLA at grimmaudio.nlhttp://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing listMLA at grimmaudio.nlhttp://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>
>
> --
>
>
> If you want good sound on your album, come to
> Bob Katz 407-831-0233 DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
> Author: *Mastering Audio              *Digital Domain Website <http://www.digido.com/>
>
> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.*Please excuse the weird typing - this message dictated by microphone. Contact me by regular email. *
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
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From gatewaybob at mac.com  Wed May 25 18:19:35 2016
From: gatewaybob at mac.com (Robert Ludwig)
Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 12:19:35 -0400
Subject: [MLA] a great 45 minute Paul McCartney interview on the BBC
Message-ID: <5AA81C83-A539-4880-A1A1-1CD8BBAF87BB@mac.com>

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03w2989 <http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03w2989>

is a great 45 minute interview on BBC Radio 4 that will only be up on their site for viewing for the next 28 days, catch it while you can.
There are actors and other musicians among the audience.  At the end, one of the musicians says ?I was out with your two daughters yesterday and they wanted me to ask you a question for them??  It?s hilarious.

I didn?t know that ?Here, There and Everywhere? was his favorite song.

Enjoy it while you can,
Bob

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From eelco at grimmaudio.com  Fri May 27 23:12:42 2016
From: eelco at grimmaudio.com (Grimm | Eelco)
Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 23:12:42 +0200
Subject: [MLA] a great 45 minute Paul McCartney interview on the BBC
In-Reply-To: <CAC5FD1D-314A-4983-A8C6-2C57AD2E21A6@fairytapes.nl>
References: <5AA81C83-A539-4880-A1A1-1CD8BBAF87BB@mac.com>
	<CAC5FD1D-314A-4983-A8C6-2C57AD2E21A6@fairytapes.nl>
Message-ID: <8B3C26D0-C529-42A7-AD41-BAB3C97ACE3C@grimmaudio.com>

> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03w2989
> 
> is a great 45 minute interview on BBC Radio 4

Thanks Bob. I loved it. The Picasso painting story was really funny - this marks a true musician :-) 

Cheers,
Eelco



From thomas at lund.one  Sat May 28 13:54:15 2016
From: thomas at lund.one (Thomas Lund)
Date: Sat, 28 May 2016 13:54:15 +0200
Subject: [MLA] a great 45 minute Paul McCartney interview on the BBC
In-Reply-To: <8B3C26D0-C529-42A7-AD41-BAB3C97ACE3C@grimmaudio.com>
References: <5AA81C83-A539-4880-A1A1-1CD8BBAF87BB@mac.com>
	<CAC5FD1D-314A-4983-A8C6-2C57AD2E21A6@fairytapes.nl>
	<8B3C26D0-C529-42A7-AD41-BAB3C97ACE3C@grimmaudio.com>
Message-ID: <86D74B67-3C8D-4165-BBA8-EB9DE4226A9B@lund.one>

Yeah, thanks Bob. And for directing attention to BBC?s Mastertapes.
The Beep is a treasure trove in many fields, e.g. music heritage on a global scale.

all the best,
Thomas


> On 27/05/2016, at 23.12, Grimm | Eelco <eelco at grimmaudio.com> wrote:
> 
>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03w2989
>> 
>> is a great 45 minute interview on BBC Radio 4
> 
> Thanks Bob. I loved it. The Picasso painting story was really funny - this marks a true musician :-) 
> 
> Cheers,
> Eelco
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl



