From kevin.gross at comcast.net  Tue Mar  1 16:59:05 2016
From: kevin.gross at comcast.net (Kevin Gross)
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 08:59:05 -0700
Subject: [MLA] Normalizing on Tidal
In-Reply-To: <1BBD5754-3930-4AB8-BF65-6F35045D0105@grimmaudio.com>
References: <9225A3CC-C8F8-42D8-B374-4EC16BC40DD7@mac.com>
	<56CB2980.4050508@digido.com>
	<447750CB-C2AA-49E2-9C54-27D9364E3EE0@grimmaudio.com>
	<56CF10FE.2070002@digido.com>
	<E4EF4A38-136A-4639-A563-6071A653F160@lund.one>
	<5C417773-523F-47C0-A822-368B9039ABAD@grimmaudio.com>
	<11923D5E-E892-4518-B911-8F9980B8930A@lund.one>
	<41788696-07CD-4F56-8BFE-CF223D34A6EC@grimmaudio.com>
	<79A9406C-AF50-4E8B-9A94-C927CB850BB9@lund.one>
	<CALw1_Q0zBx+N+pZEkbfTNDhhAfQyL58oQEcJZUeFmfA7zOE9gQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1BBD5754-3930-4AB8-BF65-6F35045D0105@grimmaudio.com>
Message-ID: <CALw1_Q1ysD4rvxWk-ZLscsC3n_GcBqMi5uWk2-D5KSqq5kbuPQ@mail.gmail.com>

The MLA hasn't issued any information or recommendations for streaming. AES
TD1004.1.15-10 with contributions from MLA members Bob Katz and Thomas Lund
has recommended -16 LUFS. -16 LUFS is in conflict with the EBU's -24 LUFS
recommendation (the AES document says -24 LUFS can't work on mobile
devices). I beleive even -16 LUFS is too low for some player hardware and
listening environments. Because it is not possible to make everyone happy
with a single target and because the tendency is to standardize on the
loudest option when multiple targets are in play, I have always advocated
against fixed target normalization.

I agree with what I think Eelco is suggesting; Streaming services should
transmit unnormalized audio but include loudness metadata so that it can be
normalized by the player.

On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 4:06 AM, Grimm | Eelco <eelco at grimmaudio.com> wrote:

> Hi Kevin,
>
> > Things do get complicated when multiple loudness targets are in play.
> The easiest thing to do is to produce to the highest target. Our whitepaper
> recommends improving players. We should stay on that message and resist
> efforts to put even more targets in play.
>
> Yes, so -16 (to -20) LUFS is our target. The fact that Tidal offers the
> metadata to 3rd party integrators is however something different. In all
> media players it is standard that the replaygain level is merged with the
> volume control level and forwarded to for instance ALSA sound control in a
> Linux system. The fact that Tidal now offers the replaygain values
> alongside their audio means that streaming audio can be treated exactly the
> same like locally stored audio. How logical can it be?
>
> Cheers,
> Eelco
>
> > On Feb 26, 2016 9:16 AM, "Thomas Lund" <thomas at lund.one> wrote:
> > Hi Eelco,
> >
> > The catch is to get metadata safely out of the system alongside audio.
> It?s not as attractive to use an upstream NormL gain control and then
> (analog) interfacing to the amp and speaker.
> >
> > I agree with your 2+3. In case streamers use a fixed target, we have to
> convince them that one-size-fits-all doesn?t cut it. There needs to be a
> target setting at -16 LUFS or lower. To me, that?s more important than if
> we get the whole NormL enchilada from day one.
> >
> > cheers,
> > Thomas
> >
> >
> > > On 26/02/2016, at 09.34, Grimm | Eelco <eelco at grimmaudio.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Thomas,
> > >
> > >> BTW, I?m promoting the NormL principle everywhere, but the ideal is
> of course to have access to a late gain control in a *system*, especially
> if interfacing from the streaming device is analog. Hopefully Apple has
> listened...
> > >
> > > Well, Tidal did so for sure. If a company like Roon Labs has the
> replaygain data, any Tidal integrator has and they are free to implement
> Norm-l.
> > >
> > > In the end that is perhaps the largest step that Tidal set: offering
> the raw loudness data to app builders that integrate Tidal support, in
> stead of rendering the loudness data directly in their API (at their own
> default target level).
> > >
> > > I will check with someone who is deep into this streamer code stuff
> how the loudness metadata rendering in Spotify, Deezer, Qobuz etc is done.
> > >
> > > So it all boils down to three questions for streamers:
> > > 1. Do you offer the raw loudness metadata + raw audio data to
> downstream services via your API?
> > > 2. In your own apps: what is the internal target level?
> > > 3. If the loudness level of a track is lower than that target level,
> what happens?
> > >
> > > I will try to find the answer to question 1. Questions 2 and 3 will be
> answered soon when we finished our research project for the TV show. I will
> keep you updated.
> > >
> > > All the best,
> > > Eelco
> > >
> > > PS Florian: will there be a loudness panel again at AES Paris? I would
> be happy to present the results of the research project...
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > MLA mailing list
> > > MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> > > http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > MLA mailing list
> > MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> > http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
> > _______________________________________________
> > MLA mailing list
> > MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> > http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>
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From eelco at grimmaudio.com  Tue Mar  1 22:09:30 2016
From: eelco at grimmaudio.com (Grimm | Eelco)
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 22:09:30 +0100
Subject: [MLA] Normalizing on Tidal
In-Reply-To: <CALw1_Q1ysD4rvxWk-ZLscsC3n_GcBqMi5uWk2-D5KSqq5kbuPQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9225A3CC-C8F8-42D8-B374-4EC16BC40DD7@mac.com>
	<56CB2980.4050508@digido.com>
	<447750CB-C2AA-49E2-9C54-27D9364E3EE0@grimmaudio.com>
	<56CF10FE.2070002@digido.com>
	<E4EF4A38-136A-4639-A563-6071A653F160@lund.one>
	<5C417773-523F-47C0-A822-368B9039ABAD@grimmaudio.com>
	<11923D5E-E892-4518-B911-8F9980B8930A@lund.one>
	<41788696-07CD-4F56-8BFE-CF223D34A6EC@grimmaudio.com>
	<79A9406C-AF50-4E8B-9A94-C927CB850BB9@lund.one>
	<CALw1_Q0zBx+N+pZEkbfTNDhhAfQyL58oQEcJZUeFmfA7zOE9gQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1BBD5754-3930-4AB8-BF65-6F35045D0105@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q1ysD4rvxWk-ZLscsC3n_GcBqMi5uWk2-D5KSqq5kbuPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7CA06E42-EC6F-4FC2-8D9F-FF2B0BEA218A@grimmaudio.com>

Hi Kevin,

> I agree with what I think Eelco is suggesting; Streaming services should transmit unnormalized audio but include loudness metadata so that it can be normalized by the player.

I was referring to stationary media players. They all read replaygain metadata and merge that with their volume control. So in a way they all have implemented norm-l already. Now Tidal offers the loudness data in replaygain format, the Tidal stream can be treated exactly the same as local audio files. If the mobile devices apps would adopt this feature I would certainly be very happy. In fact it could be very easy: there's already a media player under development that plays under iOS, Android, Linux and Mac OS and it can merge volume control data with replaygain data. It plays local files, network files and streams from Spotify, Tidal, Deezer and Qobuz. The only thing it needs for norm-l to work is the original audio and the loudness metadata.

But this may be just for the happy few. We need to convince the big players too...

Cheers,
Eelco

> 
> On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 4:06 AM, Grimm | Eelco <eelco at grimmaudio.com> wrote:
> Hi Kevin,
> 
> > Things do get complicated when multiple loudness targets are in play. The easiest thing to do is to produce to the highest target. Our whitepaper recommends improving players. We should stay on that message and resist efforts to put even more targets in play.
> 
> Yes, so -16 (to -20) LUFS is our target. The fact that Tidal offers the metadata to 3rd party integrators is however something different. In all media players it is standard that the replaygain level is merged with the volume control level and forwarded to for instance ALSA sound control in a Linux system. The fact that Tidal now offers the replaygain values alongside their audio means that streaming audio can be treated exactly the same like locally stored audio. How logical can it be?
> 
> Cheers,
> Eelco
> 
> > On Feb 26, 2016 9:16 AM, "Thomas Lund" <thomas at lund.one> wrote:
> > Hi Eelco,
> >
> > The catch is to get metadata safely out of the system alongside audio. It?s not as attractive to use an upstream NormL gain control and then (analog) interfacing to the amp and speaker.
> >
> > I agree with your 2+3. In case streamers use a fixed target, we have to convince them that one-size-fits-all doesn?t cut it. There needs to be a target setting at -16 LUFS or lower. To me, that?s more important than if we get the whole NormL enchilada from day one.
> >
> > cheers,
> > Thomas
> >
> >
> > > On 26/02/2016, at 09.34, Grimm | Eelco <eelco at grimmaudio.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Thomas,
> > >
> > >> BTW, I?m promoting the NormL principle everywhere, but the ideal is of course to have access to a late gain control in a *system*, especially if interfacing from the streaming device is analog. Hopefully Apple has listened...
> > >
> > > Well, Tidal did so for sure. If a company like Roon Labs has the replaygain data, any Tidal integrator has and they are free to implement Norm-l.
> > >
> > > In the end that is perhaps the largest step that Tidal set: offering the raw loudness data to app builders that integrate Tidal support, in stead of rendering the loudness data directly in their API (at their own default target level).
> > >
> > > I will check with someone who is deep into this streamer code stuff how the loudness metadata rendering in Spotify, Deezer, Qobuz etc is done.
> > >
> > > So it all boils down to three questions for streamers:
> > > 1. Do you offer the raw loudness metadata + raw audio data to downstream services via your API?
> > > 2. In your own apps: what is the internal target level?
> > > 3. If the loudness level of a track is lower than that target level, what happens?
> > >
> > > I will try to find the answer to question 1. Questions 2 and 3 will be answered soon when we finished our research project for the TV show. I will keep you updated.
> > >
> > > All the best,
> > > Eelco
> > >
> > > PS Florian: will there be a loudness panel again at AES Paris? I would be happy to present the results of the research project...
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > MLA mailing list
> > > MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> > > http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > MLA mailing list
> > MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> > http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
> > _______________________________________________
> > MLA mailing list
> > MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> > http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
> 
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl



From kevin.gross at comcast.net  Tue Mar  1 23:21:29 2016
From: kevin.gross at comcast.net (Kevin Gross)
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 15:21:29 -0700
Subject: [MLA] Normalizing on Tidal
In-Reply-To: <7CA06E42-EC6F-4FC2-8D9F-FF2B0BEA218A@grimmaudio.com>
References: <9225A3CC-C8F8-42D8-B374-4EC16BC40DD7@mac.com>
	<56CB2980.4050508@digido.com>
	<447750CB-C2AA-49E2-9C54-27D9364E3EE0@grimmaudio.com>
	<56CF10FE.2070002@digido.com>
	<E4EF4A38-136A-4639-A563-6071A653F160@lund.one>
	<5C417773-523F-47C0-A822-368B9039ABAD@grimmaudio.com>
	<11923D5E-E892-4518-B911-8F9980B8930A@lund.one>
	<41788696-07CD-4F56-8BFE-CF223D34A6EC@grimmaudio.com>
	<79A9406C-AF50-4E8B-9A94-C927CB850BB9@lund.one>
	<CALw1_Q0zBx+N+pZEkbfTNDhhAfQyL58oQEcJZUeFmfA7zOE9gQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1BBD5754-3930-4AB8-BF65-6F35045D0105@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q1ysD4rvxWk-ZLscsC3n_GcBqMi5uWk2-D5KSqq5kbuPQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<7CA06E42-EC6F-4FC2-8D9F-FF2B0BEA218A@grimmaudio.com>
Message-ID: <CALw1_Q39BHQX0_WPeq-DFC01tvY0pw3=efg5hk0hmFtmYyy9dg@mail.gmail.com>

Unfortunately all the ReplayGain implementations I've seen don't actually
adjust the system volume; They just attenuate or amplify the player's
output in accordance with the loudness measurement. Sound Check on portable
devices works the same. There is no happiness for anyone here. With this
approach, modern loud recordings are attenuated and play at a lower maximum
volume when normalization is enabled. Amplification on older dynamic
recordings introduces clipping or limiting at any playback level.

On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 2:09 PM, Grimm | Eelco <eelco at grimmaudio.com> wrote:

> Hi Kevin,
>
> > I agree with what I think Eelco is suggesting; Streaming services should
> transmit unnormalized audio but include loudness metadata so that it can be
> normalized by the player.
>
> I was referring to stationary media players. They all read replaygain
> metadata and merge that with their volume control. So in a way they all
> have implemented norm-l already. Now Tidal offers the loudness data in
> replaygain format, the Tidal stream can be treated exactly the same as
> local audio files. If the mobile devices apps would adopt this feature I
> would certainly be very happy. In fact it could be very easy: there's
> already a media player under development that plays under iOS, Android,
> Linux and Mac OS and it can merge volume control data with replaygain data.
> It plays local files, network files and streams from Spotify, Tidal, Deezer
> and Qobuz. The only thing it needs for norm-l to work is the original audio
> and the loudness metadata.
>
> But this may be just for the happy few. We need to convince the big
> players too...
>
> Cheers,
> Eelco
>
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 4:06 AM, Grimm | Eelco <eelco at grimmaudio.com>
> wrote:
> > Hi Kevin,
> >
> > > Things do get complicated when multiple loudness targets are in play.
> The easiest thing to do is to produce to the highest target. Our whitepaper
> recommends improving players. We should stay on that message and resist
> efforts to put even more targets in play.
> >
> > Yes, so -16 (to -20) LUFS is our target. The fact that Tidal offers the
> metadata to 3rd party integrators is however something different. In all
> media players it is standard that the replaygain level is merged with the
> volume control level and forwarded to for instance ALSA sound control in a
> Linux system. The fact that Tidal now offers the replaygain values
> alongside their audio means that streaming audio can be treated exactly the
> same like locally stored audio. How logical can it be?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Eelco
> >
> > > On Feb 26, 2016 9:16 AM, "Thomas Lund" <thomas at lund.one> wrote:
> > > Hi Eelco,
> > >
> > > The catch is to get metadata safely out of the system alongside audio.
> It?s not as attractive to use an upstream NormL gain control and then
> (analog) interfacing to the amp and speaker.
> > >
> > > I agree with your 2+3. In case streamers use a fixed target, we have
> to convince them that one-size-fits-all doesn?t cut it. There needs to be a
> target setting at -16 LUFS or lower. To me, that?s more important than if
> we get the whole NormL enchilada from day one.
> > >
> > > cheers,
> > > Thomas
> > >
> > >
> > > > On 26/02/2016, at 09.34, Grimm | Eelco <eelco at grimmaudio.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Thomas,
> > > >
> > > >> BTW, I?m promoting the NormL principle everywhere, but the ideal is
> of course to have access to a late gain control in a *system*, especially
> if interfacing from the streaming device is analog. Hopefully Apple has
> listened...
> > > >
> > > > Well, Tidal did so for sure. If a company like Roon Labs has the
> replaygain data, any Tidal integrator has and they are free to implement
> Norm-l.
> > > >
> > > > In the end that is perhaps the largest step that Tidal set: offering
> the raw loudness data to app builders that integrate Tidal support, in
> stead of rendering the loudness data directly in their API (at their own
> default target level).
> > > >
> > > > I will check with someone who is deep into this streamer code stuff
> how the loudness metadata rendering in Spotify, Deezer, Qobuz etc is done.
> > > >
> > > > So it all boils down to three questions for streamers:
> > > > 1. Do you offer the raw loudness metadata + raw audio data to
> downstream services via your API?
> > > > 2. In your own apps: what is the internal target level?
> > > > 3. If the loudness level of a track is lower than that target level,
> what happens?
> > > >
> > > > I will try to find the answer to question 1. Questions 2 and 3 will
> be answered soon when we finished our research project for the TV show. I
> will keep you updated.
> > > >
> > > > All the best,
> > > > Eelco
> > > >
> > > > PS Florian: will there be a loudness panel again at AES Paris? I
> would be happy to present the results of the research project...
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > MLA mailing list
> > > > MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> > > > http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > MLA mailing list
> > > MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> > > http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > MLA mailing list
> > > MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> > > http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > MLA mailing list
> > MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> > http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > MLA mailing list
> > MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> > http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>
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From eelco at grimmaudio.com  Wed Mar  2 00:25:01 2016
From: eelco at grimmaudio.com (Grimm | Eelco)
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 00:25:01 +0100
Subject: [MLA] Normalizing on Tidal
In-Reply-To: <CALw1_Q39BHQX0_WPeq-DFC01tvY0pw3=efg5hk0hmFtmYyy9dg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9225A3CC-C8F8-42D8-B374-4EC16BC40DD7@mac.com>
	<56CB2980.4050508@digido.com>
	<447750CB-C2AA-49E2-9C54-27D9364E3EE0@grimmaudio.com>
	<56CF10FE.2070002@digido.com>
	<E4EF4A38-136A-4639-A563-6071A653F160@lund.one>
	<5C417773-523F-47C0-A822-368B9039ABAD@grimmaudio.com>
	<11923D5E-E892-4518-B911-8F9980B8930A@lund.one>
	<41788696-07CD-4F56-8BFE-CF223D34A6EC@grimmaudio.com>
	<79A9406C-AF50-4E8B-9A94-C927CB850BB9@lund.one>
	<CALw1_Q0zBx+N+pZEkbfTNDhhAfQyL58oQEcJZUeFmfA7zOE9gQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1BBD5754-3930-4AB8-BF65-6F35045D0105@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q1ysD4rvxWk-ZLscsC3n_GcBqMi5uWk2-D5KSqq5kbuPQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<7CA06E42-EC6F-4FC2-8D9F-FF2B0BEA218A@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q39BHQX0_WPeq-DFC01tvY0pw3=efg5hk0hmFtmYyy9dg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DDB99901-C97B-4ADD-B0AE-5F4597D96089@grimmaudio.com>

Hi Kevin,

> Unfortunately all the ReplayGain implementations I've seen don't actually adjust the system volume; They just attenuate or amplify the player's output in accordance with the loudness measurement.

What I meant is that the controller app of the media player often has a volume control slider. This data is merged with the replaygain values and used for digital volume control right before the DAC of the media player. If there's a simple analog volume control behind the media player, this is of course the best you can get. In fact digital volume control often is of higher quality than analog volume control, so it is already quite optimal. In our LS1 system, we do not affect the audio in the media player but forward the 'volume + replaygain' data to the DSP in the speakers, so the DSP can work on unattenuated audio and the volume is set after the crossover filters, just before the DAC's. I agree that is rarely seen, unfortunately. But it still is a digital volume control. 

> Sound Check on portable devices works the same. There is no happiness for anyone here. With this approach, modern loud recordings are attenuated and play at a lower maximum volume when normalization is enabled. Amplification on older dynamic recordings introduces clipping or limiting at any playback level.

I now see what you mean: with norm-l completely implemented, the volume + replaygain level would never cause clipping, but just 'loose normalization'. With media players that simply merge replaygain with volume settings, this is only guaranteed if the analog gain after the media player dac is big enough to play at your preferred maximum level with the most dynamic track in your collection. All the other tracks would be attenuated always. But that's no problem. It is in fact what we advocate for mobile use as well: "please make sure there is enough gain to playback -23LUFS tracks at the max allowed Cenelec level". From then on norm-l would never go 'out of normalization', except for tracks that are lower in loudness than -23 LUFS. In case devices do not offer this headroom, of course the full norm-l approach including 'going out of normalization at high playback levels' is of course preferable (although a build in limiter would also perform nicely).

Cheers,
Eelco

From bobkatz at digido.com  Wed Mar  2 16:05:03 2016
From: bobkatz at digido.com (Bob Katz)
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 10:05:03 -0500
Subject: [MLA] Normalizing on Tidal
In-Reply-To: <CALw1_Q39BHQX0_WPeq-DFC01tvY0pw3=efg5hk0hmFtmYyy9dg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9225A3CC-C8F8-42D8-B374-4EC16BC40DD7@mac.com>
	<56CB2980.4050508@digido.com>
	<447750CB-C2AA-49E2-9C54-27D9364E3EE0@grimmaudio.com>
	<56CF10FE.2070002@digido.com>
	<E4EF4A38-136A-4639-A563-6071A653F160@lund.one>
	<5C417773-523F-47C0-A822-368B9039ABAD@grimmaudio.com>
	<11923D5E-E892-4518-B911-8F9980B8930A@lund.one>
	<41788696-07CD-4F56-8BFE-CF223D34A6EC@grimmaudio.com>
	<79A9406C-AF50-4E8B-9A94-C927CB850BB9@lund.one>
	<CALw1_Q0zBx+N+pZEkbfTNDhhAfQyL58oQEcJZUeFmfA7zOE9gQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1BBD5754-3930-4AB8-BF65-6F35045D0105@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q1ysD4rvxWk-ZLscsC3n_GcBqMi5uWk2-D5KSqq5kbuPQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<7CA06E42-EC6F-4FC2-8D9F-FF2B0BEA218A@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q39BHQX0_WPeq-DFC01tvY0pw3=efg5hk0hmFtmYyy9dg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56D7011F.7090005@digido.com>

Well, Apple's OSX is floating point all the way through so it doesn't 
matter one bit (pun intended) whether the player's volume control does 
the manipulation and the system volume does a little manipulation 
afterward, nothing is lost. That is, it would be nice if Apple would 
then dither the signal to 24 bits at the last stage on the way to the 
fixed point output or the internal DAC.

Bob




On 3/1/16 5:21 PM, Kevin Gross wrote:
> Unfortunately all the ReplayGain implementations I've seen don't 
> actually adjust the system volume; They just attenuate or amplify the 
> player's output in accordance with the loudness measurement. Sound 
> Check on portable devices works the same. There is no happiness for 
> anyone here. With this approach, modern loud recordings are attenuated 
> and play at a lower maximum volume when normalization is enabled. 
> Amplification on older dynamic recordings introduces clipping or 
> limiting at any playback level.
>
> On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 2:09 PM, Grimm | Eelco <eelco at grimmaudio.com 
> <mailto:eelco at grimmaudio.com>> wrote:
>
>     Hi Kevin,
>
>     > I agree with what I think Eelco is suggesting; Streaming
>     services should transmit unnormalized audio but include loudness
>     metadata so that it can be normalized by the player.
>
>     I was referring to stationary media players. They all read
>     replaygain metadata and merge that with their volume control. So
>     in a way they all have implemented norm-l already. Now Tidal
>     offers the loudness data in replaygain format, the Tidal stream
>     can be treated exactly the same as local audio files. If the
>     mobile devices apps would adopt this feature I would certainly be
>     very happy. In fact it could be very easy: there's already a media
>     player under development that plays under iOS, Android, Linux and
>     Mac OS and it can merge volume control data with replaygain data.
>     It plays local files, network files and streams from Spotify,
>     Tidal, Deezer and Qobuz. The only thing it needs for norm-l to
>     work is the original audio and the loudness metadata.
>
>     But this may be just for the happy few. We need to convince the
>     big players too...
>
>     Cheers,
>     Eelco
>
>     >
>     > On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 4:06 AM, Grimm | Eelco
>     <eelco at grimmaudio.com <mailto:eelco at grimmaudio.com>> wrote:
>     > Hi Kevin,
>     >
>     > > Things do get complicated when multiple loudness targets are
>     in play. The easiest thing to do is to produce to the highest
>     target. Our whitepaper recommends improving players. We should
>     stay on that message and resist efforts to put even more targets
>     in play.
>     >
>     > Yes, so -16 (to -20) LUFS is our target. The fact that Tidal
>     offers the metadata to 3rd party integrators is however something
>     different. In all media players it is standard that the replaygain
>     level is merged with the volume control level and forwarded to for
>     instance ALSA sound control in a Linux system. The fact that Tidal
>     now offers the replaygain values alongside their audio means that
>     streaming audio can be treated exactly the same like locally
>     stored audio. How logical can it be?
>     >
>     > Cheers,
>     > Eelco
>     >
>     > > On Feb 26, 2016 9:16 AM, "Thomas Lund" <thomas at lund.one> wrote:
>     > > Hi Eelco,
>     > >
>     > > The catch is to get metadata safely out of the system
>     alongside audio. It?s not as attractive to use an upstream NormL
>     gain control and then (analog) interfacing to the amp and speaker.
>     > >
>     > > I agree with your 2+3. In case streamers use a fixed target,
>     we have to convince them that one-size-fits-all doesn?t cut it.
>     There needs to be a target setting at -16 LUFS or lower. To me,
>     that?s more important than if we get the whole NormL enchilada
>     from day one.
>     > >
>     > > cheers,
>     > > Thomas
>     > >
>     > >
>     > > > On 26/02/2016, at 09.34, Grimm | Eelco <eelco at grimmaudio.com
>     <mailto:eelco at grimmaudio.com>> wrote:
>     > > >
>     > > > Hi Thomas,
>     > > >
>     > > >> BTW, I?m promoting the NormL principle everywhere, but the
>     ideal is of course to have access to a late gain control in a
>     *system*, especially if interfacing from the streaming device is
>     analog. Hopefully Apple has listened...
>     > > >
>     > > > Well, Tidal did so for sure. If a company like Roon Labs has
>     the replaygain data, any Tidal integrator has and they are free to
>     implement Norm-l.
>     > > >
>     > > > In the end that is perhaps the largest step that Tidal set:
>     offering the raw loudness data to app builders that integrate
>     Tidal support, in stead of rendering the loudness data directly in
>     their API (at their own default target level).
>     > > >
>     > > > I will check with someone who is deep into this streamer
>     code stuff how the loudness metadata rendering in Spotify, Deezer,
>     Qobuz etc is done.
>     > > >
>     > > > So it all boils down to three questions for streamers:
>     > > > 1. Do you offer the raw loudness metadata + raw audio data
>     to downstream services via your API?
>     > > > 2. In your own apps: what is the internal target level?
>     > > > 3. If the loudness level of a track is lower than that
>     target level, what happens?
>     > > >
>     > > > I will try to find the answer to question 1. Questions 2 and
>     3 will be answered soon when we finished our research project for
>     the TV show. I will keep you updated.
>     > > >
>     > > > All the best,
>     > > > Eelco
>     > > >
>     > > > PS Florian: will there be a loudness panel again at AES
>     Paris? I would be happy to present the results of the research
>     project...
>     > > > _______________________________________________
>     > > > MLA mailing list
>     > > > MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>     > > > http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>     > >
>     > >
>     > > _______________________________________________
>     > > MLA mailing list
>     > > MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>     > > http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>     > > _______________________________________________
>     > > MLA mailing list
>     > > MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>     > > http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>     >
>     >
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > MLA mailing list
>     > MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>     > http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>     >
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > MLA mailing list
>     > MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>     > http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     MLA mailing list
>     MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>     http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl

-- 

If you want good sound on your album, come to Bob Katz 407-831-0233 
DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO Author: *Mastering Audio *Digital Domain 
Website <http://www.digido.com/> No trees were killed in the sending of 
this message. However a large number of electrons were terribly 
inconvenienced.*No more Plaxo, Linked-In, or any of the other 
time-suckers. Please contact me by regular email. Yes, we have a 
facebook page and a You-Tube site!*

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From kevin.gross at comcast.net  Wed Mar  2 17:37:45 2016
From: kevin.gross at comcast.net (Kevin Gross)
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 09:37:45 -0700
Subject: [MLA] Normalizing on Tidal
In-Reply-To: <56D7011F.7090005@digido.com>
References: <9225A3CC-C8F8-42D8-B374-4EC16BC40DD7@mac.com>
	<56CB2980.4050508@digido.com>
	<447750CB-C2AA-49E2-9C54-27D9364E3EE0@grimmaudio.com>
	<56CF10FE.2070002@digido.com>
	<E4EF4A38-136A-4639-A563-6071A653F160@lund.one>
	<5C417773-523F-47C0-A822-368B9039ABAD@grimmaudio.com>
	<11923D5E-E892-4518-B911-8F9980B8930A@lund.one>
	<41788696-07CD-4F56-8BFE-CF223D34A6EC@grimmaudio.com>
	<79A9406C-AF50-4E8B-9A94-C927CB850BB9@lund.one>
	<CALw1_Q0zBx+N+pZEkbfTNDhhAfQyL58oQEcJZUeFmfA7zOE9gQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1BBD5754-3930-4AB8-BF65-6F35045D0105@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q1ysD4rvxWk-ZLscsC3n_GcBqMi5uWk2-D5KSqq5kbuPQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<7CA06E42-EC6F-4FC2-8D9F-FF2B0BEA218A@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q39BHQX0_WPeq-DFC01tvY0pw3=efg5hk0hmFtmYyy9dg@mail.gmail.com>
	<56D7011F.7090005@digido.com>
Message-ID: <CALw1_Q17k-78_4wBqjT+FR9MbZG3Q5jYzmOnmoyR8sHi60VzjA@mail.gmail.com>

Eelco I think I understand what you're saying and it would be great if
there were more systems where normalization adjusted the final volume for
the setting (regardless of whether that's an analog or digital control). An
alternative, as Bob points out, is to use floating point or other high
dynamic range audio path. To my knowledge none of this exists for portable
devices. Using loudness normalization on a portable device produces
distortion for higher DR masters and/or artificially limits maximum
playback level for the lower DR masters.

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 8:05 AM, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com> wrote:

> Well, Apple's OSX is floating point all the way through so it doesn't
> matter one bit (pun intended) whether the player's volume control does the
> manipulation and the system volume does a little manipulation afterward,
> nothing is lost. That is, it would be nice if Apple would then dither the
> signal to 24 bits at the last stage on the way to the fixed point output or
> the internal DAC.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>
> On 3/1/16 5:21 PM, Kevin Gross wrote:
>
> Unfortunately all the ReplayGain implementations I've seen don't actually
> adjust the system volume; They just attenuate or amplify the player's
> output in accordance with the loudness measurement. Sound Check on portable
> devices works the same. There is no happiness for anyone here. With this
> approach, modern loud recordings are attenuated and play at a lower maximum
> volume when normalization is enabled. Amplification on older dynamic
> recordings introduces clipping or limiting at any playback level.
>
> On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 2:09 PM, Grimm | Eelco <eelco at grimmaudio.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Kevin,
>>
>> > I agree with what I think Eelco is suggesting; Streaming services
>> should transmit unnormalized audio but include loudness metadata so that it
>> can be normalized by the player.
>>
>> I was referring to stationary media players. They all read replaygain
>> metadata and merge that with their volume control. So in a way they all
>> have implemented norm-l already. Now Tidal offers the loudness data in
>> replaygain format, the Tidal stream can be treated exactly the same as
>> local audio files. If the mobile devices apps would adopt this feature I
>> would certainly be very happy. In fact it could be very easy: there's
>> already a media player under development that plays under iOS, Android,
>> Linux and Mac OS and it can merge volume control data with replaygain data.
>> It plays local files, network files and streams from Spotify, Tidal, Deezer
>> and Qobuz. The only thing it needs for norm-l to work is the original audio
>> and the loudness metadata.
>>
>> But this may be just for the happy few. We need to convince the big
>> players too...
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Eelco
>>
>> >
>> > On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 4:06 AM, Grimm | Eelco < <eelco at grimmaudio.com>
>> eelco at grimmaudio.com> wrote:
>> > Hi Kevin,
>> >
>> > > Things do get complicated when multiple loudness targets are in play.
>> The easiest thing to do is to produce to the highest target. Our whitepaper
>> recommends improving players. We should stay on that message and resist
>> efforts to put even more targets in play.
>> >
>> > Yes, so -16 (to -20) LUFS is our target. The fact that Tidal offers the
>> metadata to 3rd party integrators is however something different. In all
>> media players it is standard that the replaygain level is merged with the
>> volume control level and forwarded to for instance ALSA sound control in a
>> Linux system. The fact that Tidal now offers the replaygain values
>> alongside their audio means that streaming audio can be treated exactly the
>> same like locally stored audio. How logical can it be?
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Eelco
>> >
>> > > On Feb 26, 2016 9:16 AM, "Thomas Lund" <thomas at lund.one>
>> <thomas at lund.one> wrote:
>> > > Hi Eelco,
>> > >
>> > > The catch is to get metadata safely out of the system alongside
>> audio. It?s not as attractive to use an upstream NormL gain control and
>> then (analog) interfacing to the amp and speaker.
>> > >
>> > > I agree with your 2+3. In case streamers use a fixed target, we have
>> to convince them that one-size-fits-all doesn?t cut it. There needs to be a
>> target setting at -16 LUFS or lower. To me, that?s more important than if
>> we get the whole NormL enchilada from day one.
>> > >
>> > > cheers,
>> > > Thomas
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > On 26/02/2016, at 09.34, Grimm | Eelco <eelco at grimmaudio.com>
>> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > Hi Thomas,
>> > > >
>> > > >> BTW, I?m promoting the NormL principle everywhere, but the ideal
>> is of course to have access to a late gain control in a *system*,
>> especially if interfacing from the streaming device is analog. Hopefully
>> Apple has listened...
>> > > >
>> > > > Well, Tidal did so for sure. If a company like Roon Labs has the
>> replaygain data, any Tidal integrator has and they are free to implement
>> Norm-l.
>> > > >
>> > > > In the end that is perhaps the largest step that Tidal set:
>> offering the raw loudness data to app builders that integrate Tidal
>> support, in stead of rendering the loudness data directly in their API (at
>> their own default target level).
>> > > >
>> > > > I will check with someone who is deep into this streamer code stuff
>> how the loudness metadata rendering in Spotify, Deezer, Qobuz etc is done.
>> > > >
>> > > > So it all boils down to three questions for streamers:
>> > > > 1. Do you offer the raw loudness metadata + raw audio data to
>> downstream services via your API?
>> > > > 2. In your own apps: what is the internal target level?
>> > > > 3. If the loudness level of a track is lower than that target
>> level, what happens?
>> > > >
>> > > > I will try to find the answer to question 1. Questions 2 and 3 will
>> be answered soon when we finished our research project for the TV show. I
>> will keep you updated.
>> > > >
>> > > > All the best,
>> > > > Eelco
>> > > >
>> > > > PS Florian: will there be a loudness panel again at AES Paris? I
>> would be happy to present the results of the research project...
>> > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > MLA mailing list
>> > > > MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>> > > > http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > MLA mailing list
>> > > MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>> > > http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > MLA mailing list
>> > > MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>> > > http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > MLA mailing list
>> > MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>> > http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > MLA mailing list
>> > MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>> > http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing listMLA at grimmaudio.nlhttp://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>
>
> --
>
>
> If you want good sound on your album, come to
> Bob Katz 407-831-0233 DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO
> Author: *Mastering Audio              *Digital Domain Website <http://www.digido.com/>
>
> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.*No more Plaxo, Linked-In, or any of the other time-suckers.
> Please contact me by regular email. Yes, we have a facebook page and a You-Tube site!*
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>
>
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From eelco at grimmaudio.com  Wed Mar  2 23:27:33 2016
From: eelco at grimmaudio.com (Grimm | Eelco)
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 23:27:33 +0100
Subject: [MLA] Normalizing on Tidal
In-Reply-To: <CALw1_Q17k-78_4wBqjT+FR9MbZG3Q5jYzmOnmoyR8sHi60VzjA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9225A3CC-C8F8-42D8-B374-4EC16BC40DD7@mac.com>
	<56CB2980.4050508@digido.com>
	<447750CB-C2AA-49E2-9C54-27D9364E3EE0@grimmaudio.com>
	<56CF10FE.2070002@digido.com>
	<E4EF4A38-136A-4639-A563-6071A653F160@lund.one>
	<5C417773-523F-47C0-A822-368B9039ABAD@grimmaudio.com>
	<11923D5E-E892-4518-B911-8F9980B8930A@lund.one>
	<41788696-07CD-4F56-8BFE-CF223D34A6EC@grimmaudio.com>
	<79A9406C-AF50-4E8B-9A94-C927CB850BB9@lund.one>
	<CALw1_Q0zBx+N+pZEkbfTNDhhAfQyL58oQEcJZUeFmfA7zOE9gQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1BBD5754-3930-4AB8-BF65-6F35045D0105@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q1ysD4rvxWk-ZLscsC3n_GcBqMi5uWk2-D5KSqq5kbuPQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<7CA06E42-EC6F-4FC2-8D9F-FF2B0BEA218A@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q39BHQX0_WPeq-DFC01tvY0pw3=efg5hk0hmFtmYyy9dg@mail.gmail.com>
	<56D7011F.7090005@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q17k-78_4wBqjT+FR9MbZG3Q5jYzmOnmoyR8sHi60VzjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <315D9F9A-E3F6-45B9-848A-27465272C4DB@grimmaudio.com>

Hi Kevin,

> Eelco I think I understand what you're saying and it would be great if there were more systems where normalization adjusted the final volume for the setting (regardless of whether that's an analog or digital control). An alternative, as Bob points out, is to use floating point or other high dynamic range audio path. To my knowledge none of this exists for portable devices.

Not yet no. But I know at least one initiative that will be cross platform (including iOS and Android) and supports this behavior, both for streaming and local files. Let's hope we can eventually all head in that direction...

Cheers,
Eelco

From kevin.gross at comcast.net  Thu Mar  3 00:37:16 2016
From: kevin.gross at comcast.net (Kevin Gross)
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 16:37:16 -0700
Subject: [MLA] Normalizing on Tidal
In-Reply-To: <315D9F9A-E3F6-45B9-848A-27465272C4DB@grimmaudio.com>
References: <9225A3CC-C8F8-42D8-B374-4EC16BC40DD7@mac.com>
	<56CB2980.4050508@digido.com>
	<447750CB-C2AA-49E2-9C54-27D9364E3EE0@grimmaudio.com>
	<56CF10FE.2070002@digido.com>
	<E4EF4A38-136A-4639-A563-6071A653F160@lund.one>
	<5C417773-523F-47C0-A822-368B9039ABAD@grimmaudio.com>
	<11923D5E-E892-4518-B911-8F9980B8930A@lund.one>
	<41788696-07CD-4F56-8BFE-CF223D34A6EC@grimmaudio.com>
	<79A9406C-AF50-4E8B-9A94-C927CB850BB9@lund.one>
	<CALw1_Q0zBx+N+pZEkbfTNDhhAfQyL58oQEcJZUeFmfA7zOE9gQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1BBD5754-3930-4AB8-BF65-6F35045D0105@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q1ysD4rvxWk-ZLscsC3n_GcBqMi5uWk2-D5KSqq5kbuPQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<7CA06E42-EC6F-4FC2-8D9F-FF2B0BEA218A@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q39BHQX0_WPeq-DFC01tvY0pw3=efg5hk0hmFtmYyy9dg@mail.gmail.com>
	<56D7011F.7090005@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q17k-78_4wBqjT+FR9MbZG3Q5jYzmOnmoyR8sHi60VzjA@mail.gmail.com>
	<315D9F9A-E3F6-45B9-848A-27465272C4DB@grimmaudio.com>
Message-ID: <CALw1_Q2fc_swLG7HVjzbMc+rReWmb=zUYyh2ob90UUJj6bjR_Q@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, that's the direction we need to head. That's what our MLA whitepaper
is asking for.

As an aside, a couple years ago I did some design work for commercial mic
preamps and found that analog control of amplifier gain is not often a win.
The best solution is often just to make a nice quiet constant gain
amplifier, connect to a quality ADC and do all your level control
digitally. I'm pretty sure the same would apply to headphone outputs for
portable players.

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 3:27 PM, Grimm | Eelco <eelco at grimmaudio.com> wrote:

> Hi Kevin,
>
> > Eelco I think I understand what you're saying and it would be great if
> there were more systems where normalization adjusted the final volume for
> the setting (regardless of whether that's an analog or digital control). An
> alternative, as Bob points out, is to use floating point or other high
> dynamic range audio path. To my knowledge none of this exists for portable
> devices.
>
> Not yet no. But I know at least one initiative that will be cross platform
> (including iOS and Android) and supports this behavior, both for streaming
> and local files. Let's hope we can eventually all head in that direction...
>
> Cheers,
> Eelco
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From eelco at grimmaudio.com  Thu Mar  3 10:13:44 2016
From: eelco at grimmaudio.com (Grimm | Eelco)
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 10:13:44 +0100
Subject: [MLA] Normalizing on Tidal
In-Reply-To: <CALw1_Q2fc_swLG7HVjzbMc+rReWmb=zUYyh2ob90UUJj6bjR_Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9225A3CC-C8F8-42D8-B374-4EC16BC40DD7@mac.com>
	<56CB2980.4050508@digido.com>
	<447750CB-C2AA-49E2-9C54-27D9364E3EE0@grimmaudio.com>
	<56CF10FE.2070002@digido.com>
	<E4EF4A38-136A-4639-A563-6071A653F160@lund.one>
	<5C417773-523F-47C0-A822-368B9039ABAD@grimmaudio.com>
	<11923D5E-E892-4518-B911-8F9980B8930A@lund.one>
	<41788696-07CD-4F56-8BFE-CF223D34A6EC@grimmaudio.com>
	<79A9406C-AF50-4E8B-9A94-C927CB850BB9@lund.one>
	<CALw1_Q0zBx+N+pZEkbfTNDhhAfQyL58oQEcJZUeFmfA7zOE9gQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1BBD5754-3930-4AB8-BF65-6F35045D0105@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q1ysD4rvxWk-ZLscsC3n_GcBqMi5uWk2-D5KSqq5kbuPQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<7CA06E42-EC6F-4FC2-8D9F-FF2B0BEA218A@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q39BHQX0_WPeq-DFC01tvY0pw3=efg5hk0hmFtmYyy9dg@mail.gmail.com>
	<56D7011F.7090005@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q17k-78_4wBqjT+FR9MbZG3Q5jYzmOnmoyR8sHi60VzjA@mail.gmail.com>
	<315D9F9A-E3F6-45B9-848A-27465272C4DB@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q2fc_swLG7HVjzbMc+rReWmb=zUYyh2ob90UUJj6bjR_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4862E4BD-048E-4DF8-AE09-8E0CF3B90FD4@grimmaudio.com>

Hi Kevin,

> As an aside, a couple years ago I did some design work for commercial mic preamps and found that analog control of amplifier gain is not often a win. The best solution is often just to make a nice quiet constant gain amplifier, connect to a quality ADC and do all your level control digitally.

Yes ideed... In my experience you need _a lot_ of experience and knowledge to design an analogue volume control incl. driving stages that has THD at -110 dB or so and low noise at the same time. DA's and (to a lesser extend) AD's beat that figure, certainly if they're not driven to full scale. So in general you can say digital volume control is more transparent than analog. Of course reality is more complex, but in broad lines this is true.

> I'm pretty sure the same would apply to headphone outputs for portable players.

Yes, certainly because building high quality analog stages is an expensive and current-hungry affair...
But of course the DA's in those devices are not stellar performers either, let alone the ear buds.

Cheers,
Eelco



From bobkatz at digido.com  Thu Mar  3 21:11:30 2016
From: bobkatz at digido.com (Bob Katz)
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 15:11:30 -0500
Subject: [MLA] check this out...
In-Reply-To: <4862E4BD-048E-4DF8-AE09-8E0CF3B90FD4@grimmaudio.com>
References: <9225A3CC-C8F8-42D8-B374-4EC16BC40DD7@mac.com>
	<447750CB-C2AA-49E2-9C54-27D9364E3EE0@grimmaudio.com>
	<56CF10FE.2070002@digido.com>
	<E4EF4A38-136A-4639-A563-6071A653F160@lund.one>
	<5C417773-523F-47C0-A822-368B9039ABAD@grimmaudio.com>
	<11923D5E-E892-4518-B911-8F9980B8930A@lund.one>
	<41788696-07CD-4F56-8BFE-CF223D34A6EC@grimmaudio.com>
	<79A9406C-AF50-4E8B-9A94-C927CB850BB9@lund.one>
	<CALw1_Q0zBx+N+pZEkbfTNDhhAfQyL58oQEcJZUeFmfA7zOE9gQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1BBD5754-3930-4AB8-BF65-6F35045D0105@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q1ysD4rvxWk-ZLscsC3n_GcBqMi5uWk2-D5KSqq5kbuPQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<7CA06E42-EC6F-4FC2-8D9F-FF2B0BEA218A@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q39BHQX0_WPeq-DFC01tvY0pw3=efg5hk0hmFtmYyy9dg@mail.gmail.com>
	<56D7011F.7090005@digido.com>
	<CALw1_Q17k-78_4wBqjT+FR9MbZG3Q5jYzmOnmoyR8sHi60VzjA@mail.gmail.com>
	<315D9F9A-E3F6-45B9-848A-27465272C4DB@grimmaudio.com>
	<CALw1_Q2fc_swLG7HVjzbMc+rReWmb=zUYyh2ob90UUJj6bjR_Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<4862E4BD-048E-4DF8-AE09-8E0CF3B90FD4@grimmaudio.com>
Message-ID: <56D89A72.6030109@digido.com>

I would love to get a summary...


http://www.saintpid.se/en/lufs/




-- 

If you want good sound on your album, come to Bob Katz 407-831-0233 
DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO Author: *Mastering Audio *Digital Domain 
Website <http://www.digido.com/> No trees were killed in the sending of 
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