[MLA] Our Change.org petition
Bob Katz
bobkatz at digido.com
Tue Jan 5 16:33:01 CET 2016
On 12/15/15 11:28 PM, Kevin Gross wrote:
> Bob, is there any published article you're aware of where you
> described this experience?
>
Dear Kevin, it's Bob K replying, not Bob L :-).
Probably, I'll think about it. But you can cite a talk I gave at the
107th AES Convention in New York, where I cited and described these
experiences. And gave demonstrations of currently smashed material and
compared it with "the oldies".
Best wishes,
Bob
> The 1980s section in the Wikipedia article definitely needs more
> sources to support assertions made there. This source describes the
> 1980s as an audio utopia of sorts -
> http://www.cdmasteringservices.com/dynamicdeath.htm. In this source,
> Bob Katz uses 1980s material as a reference for unsquashed masters -
> http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb14/articles/loudness-war.htm.
>
> I found a reference for the 3 consecutive over criteria and could
> incorporate this into the Wikipedia article but this would support the
> existing audio utopia in the 1980s narrative -
> http://www.recordingmag.com/resources/resourceDetail/246.html. Your
> objection to this section is that this narrative does not match your
> experience - the CD was not audio utopia in the early to mid 1980s.
> Lots of releases were clipped in a way that circumvented QC at the
> plants. The examples from the 1980s we're using to support the utopia
> narrative are cherrypicked.
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 4:49 PM, Robert Ludwig <gatewaybob at mac.com
> <mailto:gatewaybob at mac.com>> wrote:
>
> Hi Kevin,
> Yes, let’s wait to hear back from Bob K et al.
>
> Kevin, I’m very grateful that someone as knowledgable as you is a
> Wikipedia editor, thank you for that.
> I just re-read the Loudness War article and saw there have been 15
> edits in the last month and the “talk” page is pretty wicked and
> nasty.
>
> From my point of view, the only statement I would question is:
> "Since CDs were not the primary medium for popular music until the
> late 1980s, there was little motivation for competitive loudness
> practices then. CD players were also very expensive and thus
> commonly exclusive to high-end systems that would show the
> shortcomings of higher recording levels.”
>
> Early on, the record companies and CD plants established a rule
> that they would reject CD masters that had 3 consecutive
> over-levels. Even before the invention of the “look-ahead”
> brick-wall limiters, my clients almost _always_ wanted me to use
> every last bit of dynamic range. Some, like the composer John
> Zorn, discovered that sometimes even heavy clipping was not so
> audible, so he had me master, blasting his music into the red and
> then make a copy at -0.2dB (the resolution of the Sony digital
> editor) so it would pass the CD plant OVER test!
>
> All my best,
> Bob L.
>
>
>
>> On Dec 7, 2015, at 3:15 PM, Kevin Gross <kevin.gross at comcast.net
>> <mailto:kevin.gross at comcast.net>> wrote:
>>
>> These are going to be significant changes.
>>
>> Does the subcommittee of three want to consider the other options
>> mentioned in this thread before I go to the trouble of proposing
>> specific revisions?
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 11:55 AM, Thomas Lund <thomas at lund.one
>> <mailto:thomas at lund.one>> wrote:
>>
>> Hello Kevin,
>>
>> I agree about education vs. promotion, so please go ahead and
>> suggest improvements with the cause rather than us in focus.
>>
>> cheers,
>> Thomas
>>
>> PS. Even my kids know not to trust or to quote from
>> Wikipedia, which is generally a dynamic pile of
>> last-man-on-the-keyboard-self-promotion, so I wouldn't stand
>> behind an initiative referring to that. From an academic
>> point of view, the loudness war article is useless, but it
>> might not be worse than Wikipedia pages in general.
>>
>>
>>> On 07/12/2015, at 18.34, Kevin Gross
>>> <kevin.gross at comcast.net <mailto:kevin.gross at comcast.net>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> MLA was founded as a technical expert group. Our work so far
>>> has been in education and engineering on loudness topics and
>>> normalization systems. The petition is a piece of
>>> non-technical advocacy and I don't know if I'm fully
>>> comfortable with that. It is possible my concern could be
>>> addressed through editing to remove some of the stridency. I
>>> would be happy to propose some changes if you're interested.
>>> But I respect comments from Thomas and Bob Ludwig and would
>>> like to see those addressed too.
>>>
>>> Incidentally, I am one of the editors of the
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war article. If there
>>> is a specific objection to something in that article, I
>>> would be happy to try and revise it.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 9:19 AM, Thomas Lund <thomas at lund.one
>>> <mailto:thomas at lund.one>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Bob L and all,
>>>
>>> I second that. It was also not easy to defend the time
>>> spent and the potential customer annoyance caused by
>>> engaging in this topic for >15 years at TC, so kindly
>>> understand the tact and requirements needed for steaming
>>> ahead as a group.
>>>
>>> best regards,
>>> Thomas
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 07/12/2015, at 16.52, Robert Ludwig
>>>> <gatewaybob at mac.com <mailto:gatewaybob at mac.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> HI Bob K.
>>>>
>>>> First, clearly I support this initiative, that is never
>>>> in doubt.
>>>>
>>>> I re-read your original email where you wrote: "My
>>>> proposal is that the MLA become the named organization
>>>> behind the promulgation of this petition.”
>>>>
>>>> Being that some of our members are in the trenches
>>>> fighting the Loudness battle in world-class situations,
>>>> and being that our names are NOT being signed on the
>>>> petition, perhaps the MLA should NOT be the “named
>>>> organization” but “turnmeup.org
>>>> <http://turnmeup.org/>”, your own Digido.com
>>>> <http://digido.com/> site or other. It won’t change the
>>>> impact of the petition, in fact perhaps there is more
>>>> engineer community awareness of those sites than ours.
>>>>
>>>> What does the group think?
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Bob L.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Dec 7, 2015, at 9:42 AM, Bob Katz
>>>>> <bobkatz at digido.com <mailto:bobkatz at digido.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Guys, Thanks for your thoughts.
>>>>>
>>>>> We'll look at some of your thoughts and see at least
>>>>> if we can improve the links.
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as the title goes. We are activists, passionate
>>>>> about our position. This is a petition written by
>>>>> activists, designed to be put on Change.org
>>>>> <http://change.org/> to get action. It's designed to
>>>>> attract people to sign it. "Say No To A Streaming
>>>>> Loudness War" attracts attention, gets the message
>>>>> across well and is in tune with the idea of what a
>>>>> petition is supposed to do.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you want this to languish in "We're not activists,
>>>>> we're just apathetic engineers, so sign our petition
>>>>> if you care, but anyway, have a nice day."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Be an activist. Support an activist title for this
>>>>> petition!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob K.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Bob Katz 407-831-0233 <tel:407-831-0233> DIGITAL
>>>>> DOMAIN | "There are two kinds of fools, Recording,
>>>>> Mastering, Manufacturing | One says-this is old and
>>>>> therefore good. Author: *Mastering Audio *| The other
>>>>> says-this is new and thereforeDigital Domain Website
>>>>> <http://www.digido.com/> | better." No trees were
>>>>> killed in the sending of this message. However a large
>>>>> number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.*No
>>>>> more Plaxo, Linked-In, or any of the other
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>>>>> we have a facebook page and a You-Tube site!*
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--
If you want good sound on your album, come to Bob Katz 407-831-0233
DIGITAL DOMAIN MASTERING STUDIO Author: *Mastering Audio *Digital Domain
Website <http://www.digido.com/> No trees were killed in the sending of
this message. However a large number of electrons were terribly
inconvenienced.*No more Plaxo, Linked-In, or any of the other
time-suckers. Please contact me by regular email. Yes, we have a
facebook page and a You-Tube site!*
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