From bobkatz at digido.com  Mon Dec  7 13:29:09 2015
From: bobkatz at digido.com (Bob Katz)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 07:29:09 -0500
Subject: [MLA] Our Change.org petition
In-Reply-To: <71182962-E16B-4055-B516-6BDC9BA355C5@mastering-media.co.uk>
References: <FC6A3234-33A3-4774-97E9-599E261EF80F@apple.com>
	<D7F0D4A1-9CA8-4F61-8550-73CAFB8E8EBB@mac.com>
	<71182962-E16B-4055-B516-6BDC9BA355C5@mastering-media.co.uk>
Message-ID: <56657B95.3000501@digido.com>

The subcommittee of three has completed our draft of a petition for 
change.org. We've worked long and hard to make the language attractive 
to all who may read this doc.

Attached is a PDF. Please approve! Or suggest small and only cogent 
changes. Please do not distribute at this time. For the moment this 
petition is only being seen within our small group. Ian, Eelco and I 
will happily take care of the next steps required to get this petition 
published and certainly get the MLA involved in marketing and promoting 
this petition!



Take care,



Bob




-- 

Bob Katz 407-831-0233 DIGITAL DOMAIN | "There are two kinds of fools, 
Recording, Mastering, Manufacturing | One says-this is old and therefore 
good. Author: *Mastering Audio *| The other says-this is new and 
thereforeDigital Domain Website <http://www.digido.com/> | better." No 
trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number 
of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.*No more Plaxo, Linked-In, or 
any of the other time-suckers. Please contact me by regular email. Yes, 
we have a facebook page and a You-Tube site!*

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://grimmaudio.nl/pipermail/mla_grimmaudio.nl/attachments/20151207/e46aa034/attachment-0001.html>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: SayNoversion2.pdf
Type: application/pdf
Size: 90434 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://grimmaudio.nl/pipermail/mla_grimmaudio.nl/attachments/20151207/e46aa034/attachment-0001.pdf>

From thomas at lund.one  Mon Dec  7 14:17:20 2015
From: thomas at lund.one (Thomas Lund)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 14:17:20 +0100
Subject: [MLA] Our Change.org petition
In-Reply-To: <56657B95.3000501@digido.com>
References: <FC6A3234-33A3-4774-97E9-599E261EF80F@apple.com>
	<D7F0D4A1-9CA8-4F61-8550-73CAFB8E8EBB@mac.com>
	<71182962-E16B-4055-B516-6BDC9BA355C5@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<56657B95.3000501@digido.com>
Message-ID: <A89665AB-EE01-4D81-982B-B7151B2E5F0C@lund.one>

Dear Bob,

I?m not convinced about the petition idea, but I surely don?t think we should reference a shameless self-promotion site such as Wikipedia on the serious issue of preserving cultural heritage. Let?s at least rely on academic references and R128, which is more mature than the new AES rec.

If we end up agreeing to the concept and to the wording, where do you see the message going next? Remember, this is not for us but for a serious cause.

cheers,
Thomas


> On 07/12/2015, at 13.29, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com> wrote:
> 
> The subcommittee of three has completed our draft of a petition for change.org. We've worked long and hard to make the language attractive to all who may read this doc.
> 
> Attached is a PDF. Please approve! Or suggest small and only cogent changes. Please do not distribute at this time. For the moment this petition is only being seen within our small group. Ian, Eelco and I will happily take care of the next steps required to get this petition published and certainly get the MLA involved in marketing and promoting this petition!
> 
> 
> 
> Take care,
> 
> 
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Bob Katz 407-831-0233 DIGITAL DOMAIN | "There are two kinds of fools,
> Recording, Mastering, Manufacturing  | One says-this is old and therefore good.
> Author: Mastering Audio              | The other says-this is new and therefore
> Digital Domain Website <http://www.digido.com/>               | better."
> 
> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
> No more Plaxo, Linked-In, or any of the other time-suckers. Please contact me by regular email. Yes, we have a facebook page and a You-Tube site!
> <SayNoversion2.pdf>_______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://grimmaudio.nl/pipermail/mla_grimmaudio.nl/attachments/20151207/ed497cd2/attachment.html>

From gatewaybob at mac.com  Mon Dec  7 14:51:46 2015
From: gatewaybob at mac.com (Robert Ludwig)
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2015 08:51:46 -0500
Subject: [MLA] Our Change.org petition
In-Reply-To: <56657B95.3000501@digido.com>
References: <FC6A3234-33A3-4774-97E9-599E261EF80F@apple.com>
	<D7F0D4A1-9CA8-4F61-8550-73CAFB8E8EBB@mac.com>
	<71182962-E16B-4055-B516-6BDC9BA355C5@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<56657B95.3000501@digido.com>
Message-ID: <869F7A85-17CB-4991-B4AE-8DCCB96079A5@mac.com>

Hi Bob K,
I want to spend some time with this, but Thomas?s and my first knee-jerk reaction to the petition is the reference to Wikipedia for anything, any grad student knows Wikipedia is not a reference source.  

Also, for me, seeing the opening word ?NO" being emphasized makes this document a rant rather than a serious paper (we should follow AES paper submission guideline at least).  

My last "first impression" is also along these lines, it doesn?t tell the reader who is ?speaking? to them.  To me, it comes across as more of a political document than a serious engineering document.

More to come!

Best,
Bob L.


I
> On Dec 7, 2015, at 7:29 AM, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com> wrote:
> 
> The subcommittee of three has completed our draft of a petition for change.org. We've worked long and hard to make the language attractive to all who may read this doc.
> 
> Attached is a PDF. Please approve! Or suggest small and only cogent changes. Please do not distribute at this time. For the moment this petition is only being seen within our small group. Ian, Eelco and I will happily take care of the next steps required to get this petition published and certainly get the MLA involved in marketing and promoting this petition!
> 
> 
> 
> Take care,
> 
> 
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Bob Katz 407-831-0233 DIGITAL DOMAIN | "There are two kinds of fools,
> Recording, Mastering, Manufacturing  | One says-this is old and therefore good.
> Author: Mastering Audio              | The other says-this is new and therefore
> Digital Domain Website <http://www.digido.com/>               | better."
> 
> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
> No more Plaxo, Linked-In, or any of the other time-suckers. Please contact me by regular email. Yes, we have a facebook page and a You-Tube site!
> <SayNoversion2.pdf>_______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://grimmaudio.nl/pipermail/mla_grimmaudio.nl/attachments/20151207/91ffc181/attachment.html>

From eelco at grimmaudio.com  Mon Dec  7 15:11:55 2015
From: eelco at grimmaudio.com (Grimm | Eelco)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 15:11:55 +0100
Subject: [MLA] Our Change.org petition
In-Reply-To: <A89665AB-EE01-4D81-982B-B7151B2E5F0C@lund.one>
References: <FC6A3234-33A3-4774-97E9-599E261EF80F@apple.com>
	<D7F0D4A1-9CA8-4F61-8550-73CAFB8E8EBB@mac.com>
	<71182962-E16B-4055-B516-6BDC9BA355C5@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<56657B95.3000501@digido.com>
	<A89665AB-EE01-4D81-982B-B7151B2E5F0C@lund.one>
Message-ID: <A26BF46C-1BD1-4ED0-8C46-18AB04C2D68B@grimmaudio.com>

Hi Thomas,

> I?m not convinced about the petition idea, but I surely don?t think we should reference a shameless self-promotion site such as Wikipedia on the serious issue of preserving cultural heritage. Let?s at least rely on academic references and R128, which is more mature than the new AES rec.

I see (and agree with) what you mean, but this petition is targeted at the average musician etc. They would probably not be attracted to reading academic texts. So I'm all for finding another reference than Wikipedia as long as it offers a popular but in depth explanation of the loudness war. If you have any such reference, please share it.

What we could do is just mention the youtube movie and the MLA link page. The wikipedia link could be one of many on the MLA page. 

Cheers,
Eelco

From bobkatz at digido.com  Mon Dec  7 15:42:47 2015
From: bobkatz at digido.com (Bob Katz)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 09:42:47 -0500
Subject: [MLA] Our Change.org petition
In-Reply-To: <A26BF46C-1BD1-4ED0-8C46-18AB04C2D68B@grimmaudio.com>
References: <FC6A3234-33A3-4774-97E9-599E261EF80F@apple.com>
	<D7F0D4A1-9CA8-4F61-8550-73CAFB8E8EBB@mac.com>
	<71182962-E16B-4055-B516-6BDC9BA355C5@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<56657B95.3000501@digido.com>
	<A89665AB-EE01-4D81-982B-B7151B2E5F0C@lund.one>
	<A26BF46C-1BD1-4ED0-8C46-18AB04C2D68B@grimmaudio.com>
Message-ID: <56659AE7.5090209@digido.com>

Guys, Thanks for your thoughts.

We'll look at some of your thoughts and see at least if we can improve 
the links.

As far as the title goes. We are activists, passionate about our 
position. This is a petition written by activists, designed to be put on 
Change.org to get action. It's designed to attract people to sign it. 
"Say No To A Streaming Loudness War" attracts attention, gets the 
message across well and is in tune with the idea of what a petition is 
supposed to do.

Do you want this to languish in "We're not activists, we're just 
apathetic engineers, so sign our petition if you care, but anyway, have 
a nice day."


Be an activist. Support an activist title for this petition!



Bob K.


-- 

Bob Katz 407-831-0233 DIGITAL DOMAIN | "There are two kinds of fools, 
Recording, Mastering, Manufacturing | One says-this is old and therefore 
good. Author: *Mastering Audio *| The other says-this is new and 
thereforeDigital Domain Website <http://www.digido.com/> | better." No 
trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number 
of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.*No more Plaxo, Linked-In, or 
any of the other time-suckers. Please contact me by regular email. Yes, 
we have a facebook page and a You-Tube site!*

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://grimmaudio.nl/pipermail/mla_grimmaudio.nl/attachments/20151207/840bc487/attachment.html>

From gatewaybob at mac.com  Mon Dec  7 16:52:40 2015
From: gatewaybob at mac.com (Robert Ludwig)
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2015 10:52:40 -0500
Subject: [MLA] Our Change.org petition
In-Reply-To: <56659AE7.5090209@digido.com>
References: <FC6A3234-33A3-4774-97E9-599E261EF80F@apple.com>
	<D7F0D4A1-9CA8-4F61-8550-73CAFB8E8EBB@mac.com>
	<71182962-E16B-4055-B516-6BDC9BA355C5@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<56657B95.3000501@digido.com>
	<A89665AB-EE01-4D81-982B-B7151B2E5F0C@lund.one>
	<A26BF46C-1BD1-4ED0-8C46-18AB04C2D68B@grimmaudio.com>
	<56659AE7.5090209@digido.com>
Message-ID: <2A8B1537-54E8-42A5-999A-9C95E48E08D2@mac.com>

HI Bob K.

First, clearly I support this initiative, that is never in doubt.  

I re-read your original email where you wrote: "My proposal is that the MLA become the named organization behind the promulgation of this petition.?

Being that some of our members are in the trenches fighting the Loudness battle in world-class situations, and being that our names are NOT being signed on the petition, perhaps the MLA should NOT be the ?named organization? but ?turnmeup.org <http://turnmeup.org/>?, your own Digido.com site or other.  It won?t change the impact of the petition, in fact perhaps there is more engineer community awareness of those sites than ours.

What does the group think?
Thanks,
Bob L.




> On Dec 7, 2015, at 9:42 AM, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com> wrote:
> 
> Guys, Thanks for your thoughts.
> 
> We'll look at some of your thoughts and see at least if we can improve the links.
> 
> As far as the title goes. We are activists, passionate about our position. This is a petition written by activists, designed to be put on Change.org to get action. It's designed to attract people to sign it. "Say No To A Streaming Loudness War" attracts attention, gets the message across well and is in tune with the idea of what a petition is supposed to do. 
> 
> Do you want this to languish in "We're not activists, we're just apathetic engineers, so sign our petition if you care, but anyway, have a nice day."
> 
> 
> Be an activist. Support an activist title for this petition!
> 
> 
> 
> Bob K.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Bob Katz 407-831-0233 DIGITAL DOMAIN | "There are two kinds of fools,
> Recording, Mastering, Manufacturing  | One says-this is old and therefore good.
> Author: Mastering Audio              | The other says-this is new and therefore
> Digital Domain Website <http://www.digido.com/>               | better."
> 
> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
> No more Plaxo, Linked-In, or any of the other time-suckers. Please contact me by regular email. Yes, we have a facebook page and a You-Tube site!
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://grimmaudio.nl/pipermail/mla_grimmaudio.nl/attachments/20151207/abb56431/attachment-0001.html>

From thomas at lund.one  Mon Dec  7 17:19:13 2015
From: thomas at lund.one (Thomas Lund)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 17:19:13 +0100
Subject: [MLA] Our Change.org petition
In-Reply-To: <2A8B1537-54E8-42A5-999A-9C95E48E08D2@mac.com>
References: <FC6A3234-33A3-4774-97E9-599E261EF80F@apple.com>
	<D7F0D4A1-9CA8-4F61-8550-73CAFB8E8EBB@mac.com>
	<71182962-E16B-4055-B516-6BDC9BA355C5@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<56657B95.3000501@digido.com>
	<A89665AB-EE01-4D81-982B-B7151B2E5F0C@lund.one>
	<A26BF46C-1BD1-4ED0-8C46-18AB04C2D68B@grimmaudio.com>
	<56659AE7.5090209@digido.com>
	<2A8B1537-54E8-42A5-999A-9C95E48E08D2@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1C988CF8-11D6-43B3-9F15-E2B21B848A14@lund.one>

Hi Bob L and all,

I second that. It was also not easy to defend the time spent and the potential customer annoyance caused by engaging in this topic for >15 years at TC, so kindly understand the tact and requirements needed for steaming ahead as a group.

best regards,
Thomas


> On 07/12/2015, at 16.52, Robert Ludwig <gatewaybob at mac.com> wrote:
> 
> HI Bob K.
> 
> First, clearly I support this initiative, that is never in doubt.  
> 
> I re-read your original email where you wrote: "My proposal is that the MLA become the named organization behind the promulgation of this petition.?
> 
> Being that some of our members are in the trenches fighting the Loudness battle in world-class situations, and being that our names are NOT being signed on the petition, perhaps the MLA should NOT be the ?named organization? but ?turnmeup.org <http://turnmeup.org/>?, your own Digido.com <http://digido.com/> site or other.  It won?t change the impact of the petition, in fact perhaps there is more engineer community awareness of those sites than ours.
> 
> What does the group think?
> Thanks,
> Bob L.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Dec 7, 2015, at 9:42 AM, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com <mailto:bobkatz at digido.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Guys, Thanks for your thoughts.
>> 
>> We'll look at some of your thoughts and see at least if we can improve the links.
>> 
>> As far as the title goes. We are activists, passionate about our position. This is a petition written by activists, designed to be put on Change.org <http://change.org/> to get action. It's designed to attract people to sign it. "Say No To A Streaming Loudness War" attracts attention, gets the message across well and is in tune with the idea of what a petition is supposed to do. 
>> 
>> Do you want this to languish in "We're not activists, we're just apathetic engineers, so sign our petition if you care, but anyway, have a nice day."
>> 
>> 
>> Be an activist. Support an activist title for this petition!
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Bob K.
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Bob Katz 407-831-0233 DIGITAL DOMAIN | "There are two kinds of fools,
>> Recording, Mastering, Manufacturing  | One says-this is old and therefore good.
>> Author: Mastering Audio              | The other says-this is new and therefore
>> Digital Domain Website <http://www.digido.com/>               | better."
>> 
>> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
>> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>> No more Plaxo, Linked-In, or any of the other time-suckers. Please contact me by regular email. Yes, we have a facebook page and a You-Tube site!
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
> 
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://grimmaudio.nl/pipermail/mla_grimmaudio.nl/attachments/20151207/c01f26d2/attachment.html>

From kevin.gross at comcast.net  Mon Dec  7 18:34:36 2015
From: kevin.gross at comcast.net (Kevin Gross)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 10:34:36 -0700
Subject: [MLA] Our Change.org petition
In-Reply-To: <1C988CF8-11D6-43B3-9F15-E2B21B848A14@lund.one>
References: <FC6A3234-33A3-4774-97E9-599E261EF80F@apple.com>
	<D7F0D4A1-9CA8-4F61-8550-73CAFB8E8EBB@mac.com>
	<71182962-E16B-4055-B516-6BDC9BA355C5@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<56657B95.3000501@digido.com>
	<A89665AB-EE01-4D81-982B-B7151B2E5F0C@lund.one>
	<A26BF46C-1BD1-4ED0-8C46-18AB04C2D68B@grimmaudio.com>
	<56659AE7.5090209@digido.com>
	<2A8B1537-54E8-42A5-999A-9C95E48E08D2@mac.com>
	<1C988CF8-11D6-43B3-9F15-E2B21B848A14@lund.one>
Message-ID: <CALw1_Q2mJUboWgR3pAkdcC6ZxNU8cA2FYc9KWWH_0uWhpcq4-w@mail.gmail.com>

MLA was founded as a technical expert group. Our work so far has been in
education and engineering on loudness topics and normalization systems. The
petition is a piece of non-technical advocacy and I don't know if I'm fully
comfortable with that. It is possible my concern could be addressed through
editing to remove some of the stridency. I would be happy to propose some
changes if you're interested. But I respect comments from Thomas and Bob
Ludwig and would like to see those addressed too.

Incidentally, I am one of the editors of the
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war article. If there is a specific
objection to something in that article, I would be happy to try and revise
it.

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 9:19 AM, Thomas Lund <thomas at lund.one> wrote:

> Hi Bob L and all,
>
> I second that. It was also not easy to defend the time spent and the
> potential customer annoyance caused by engaging in this topic for >15 years
> at TC, so kindly understand the tact and requirements needed for steaming
> ahead as a group.
>
> best regards,
> Thomas
>
>
> On 07/12/2015, at 16.52, Robert Ludwig <gatewaybob at mac.com> wrote:
>
> HI Bob K.
>
> First, clearly I support this initiative, that is never in doubt.
>
> I re-read your original email where you wrote: "My proposal is that the
> MLA become the named organization behind the promulgation of this petition.
> ?
>
> Being that some of our members are in the trenches fighting the Loudness
> battle in world-class situations, and being that our names are NOT being
> signed on the petition, perhaps the MLA should NOT be the ?named
> organization? but ?turnmeup.org?, your own Digido.com <http://digido.com/>
> site or other.  It won?t change the impact of the petition, in fact perhaps
> there is more engineer community awareness of those sites than ours.
>
> What does the group think?
> Thanks,
> Bob L.
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 7, 2015, at 9:42 AM, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com> wrote:
>
> Guys, Thanks for your thoughts.
>
> We'll look at some of your thoughts and see at least if we can improve the
> links.
>
>
> As far as the title goes. We are activists, passionate about our position.
> This is a petition written by activists, designed to be put on Change.org
> <http://change.org/> to get action. It's designed to attract people to
> sign it. "Say No To A Streaming Loudness War" attracts attention, gets the
> message across well and is in tune with the idea of what a petition is
> supposed to do.
>
> Do you want this to languish in "We're not activists, we're just apathetic
> engineers, so sign our petition if you care, but anyway, have a nice day."
>
>
> Be an activist. Support an activist title for this petition!
>
>
>
> Bob K.
>
>
> --
>
> Bob Katz 407-831-0233 DIGITAL DOMAIN | "There are two kinds of fools,
> Recording, Mastering, Manufacturing  | One says-this is old and therefore good.
> Author: *Mastering Audio              *| The other says-this is new and thereforeDigital Domain Website <http://www.digido.com/>               | better."
>
> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.*No more Plaxo, Linked-In, or any of the other time-suckers. Please contact me by regular email. Yes, we have a facebook page and a You-Tube site!*
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://grimmaudio.nl/pipermail/mla_grimmaudio.nl/attachments/20151207/80979e0c/attachment.html>

From thomas at lund.one  Mon Dec  7 19:55:23 2015
From: thomas at lund.one (Thomas Lund)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 19:55:23 +0100
Subject: [MLA] Our Change.org petition
In-Reply-To: <CALw1_Q2mJUboWgR3pAkdcC6ZxNU8cA2FYc9KWWH_0uWhpcq4-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <FC6A3234-33A3-4774-97E9-599E261EF80F@apple.com>
	<D7F0D4A1-9CA8-4F61-8550-73CAFB8E8EBB@mac.com>
	<71182962-E16B-4055-B516-6BDC9BA355C5@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<56657B95.3000501@digido.com>
	<A89665AB-EE01-4D81-982B-B7151B2E5F0C@lund.one>
	<A26BF46C-1BD1-4ED0-8C46-18AB04C2D68B@grimmaudio.com>
	<56659AE7.5090209@digido.com>
	<2A8B1537-54E8-42A5-999A-9C95E48E08D2@mac.com>
	<1C988CF8-11D6-43B3-9F15-E2B21B848A14@lund.one>
	<CALw1_Q2mJUboWgR3pAkdcC6ZxNU8cA2FYc9KWWH_0uWhpcq4-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <879EE64A-26A3-461A-8242-1EBAADB1E96F@lund.one>

Hello Kevin,

I agree about education vs. promotion, so please go ahead and suggest improvements with the cause rather than us in focus.

cheers,
Thomas

PS. Even my kids know not to trust or to quote from Wikipedia, which is generally a dynamic pile of last-man-on-the-keyboard-self-promotion, so I wouldn't stand behind an initiative referring to that. From an academic point of view, the loudness war article is useless, but it might not be worse than Wikipedia pages in general.


> On 07/12/2015, at 18.34, Kevin Gross <kevin.gross at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> MLA was founded as a technical expert group. Our work so far has been in education and engineering on loudness topics and normalization systems. The petition is a piece of non-technical advocacy and I don't know if I'm fully comfortable with that. It is possible my concern could be addressed through editing to remove some of the stridency. I would be happy to propose some changes if you're interested. But I respect comments from Thomas and Bob Ludwig and would like to see those addressed too.
> 
> Incidentally, I am one of the editors of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war> article. If there is a specific objection to something in that article, I would be happy to try and revise it.
> 
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 9:19 AM, Thomas Lund <thomas at lund.one <mailto:thomas at lund.one>> wrote:
> Hi Bob L and all,
> 
> I second that. It was also not easy to defend the time spent and the potential customer annoyance caused by engaging in this topic for >15 years at TC, so kindly understand the tact and requirements needed for steaming ahead as a group.
> 
> best regards,
> Thomas
> 
> 
>> On 07/12/2015, at 16.52, Robert Ludwig <gatewaybob at mac.com <mailto:gatewaybob at mac.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> HI Bob K.
>> 
>> First, clearly I support this initiative, that is never in doubt.  
>> 
>> I re-read your original email where you wrote: "My proposal is that the MLA become the named organization behind the promulgation of this petition.?
>> 
>> Being that some of our members are in the trenches fighting the Loudness battle in world-class situations, and being that our names are NOT being signed on the petition, perhaps the MLA should NOT be the ?named organization? but ?turnmeup.org <http://turnmeup.org/>?, your own Digido.com <http://digido.com/> site or other.  It won?t change the impact of the petition, in fact perhaps there is more engineer community awareness of those sites than ours.
>> 
>> What does the group think?
>> Thanks,
>> Bob L.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Dec 7, 2015, at 9:42 AM, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com <mailto:bobkatz at digido.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Guys, Thanks for your thoughts.
>>> 
>>> We'll look at some of your thoughts and see at least if we can improve the links.
>>> 
>>> As far as the title goes. We are activists, passionate about our position. This is a petition written by activists, designed to be put on Change.org <http://change.org/> to get action. It's designed to attract people to sign it. "Say No To A Streaming Loudness War" attracts attention, gets the message across well and is in tune with the idea of what a petition is supposed to do. 
>>> 
>>> Do you want this to languish in "We're not activists, we're just apathetic engineers, so sign our petition if you care, but anyway, have a nice day."
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Be an activist. Support an activist title for this petition!
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Bob K.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Bob Katz 407-831-0233 <tel:407-831-0233> DIGITAL DOMAIN | "There are two kinds of fools,
>>> Recording, Mastering, Manufacturing  | One says-this is old and therefore good.
>>> Author: Mastering Audio              | The other says-this is new and therefore
>>> Digital Domain Website <http://www.digido.com/>               | better."
>>> 
>>> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
>>> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>>> No more Plaxo, Linked-In, or any of the other time-suckers. Please contact me by regular email. Yes, we have a facebook page and a You-Tube site!
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> MLA mailing list
>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl <http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl>
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl <http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl <http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://grimmaudio.nl/pipermail/mla_grimmaudio.nl/attachments/20151207/bc8d3118/attachment-0001.html>

From kevin.gross at comcast.net  Mon Dec  7 21:15:46 2015
From: kevin.gross at comcast.net (Kevin Gross)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 13:15:46 -0700
Subject: [MLA] Our Change.org petition
In-Reply-To: <879EE64A-26A3-461A-8242-1EBAADB1E96F@lund.one>
References: <FC6A3234-33A3-4774-97E9-599E261EF80F@apple.com>
	<D7F0D4A1-9CA8-4F61-8550-73CAFB8E8EBB@mac.com>
	<71182962-E16B-4055-B516-6BDC9BA355C5@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<56657B95.3000501@digido.com>
	<A89665AB-EE01-4D81-982B-B7151B2E5F0C@lund.one>
	<A26BF46C-1BD1-4ED0-8C46-18AB04C2D68B@grimmaudio.com>
	<56659AE7.5090209@digido.com>
	<2A8B1537-54E8-42A5-999A-9C95E48E08D2@mac.com>
	<1C988CF8-11D6-43B3-9F15-E2B21B848A14@lund.one>
	<CALw1_Q2mJUboWgR3pAkdcC6ZxNU8cA2FYc9KWWH_0uWhpcq4-w@mail.gmail.com>
	<879EE64A-26A3-461A-8242-1EBAADB1E96F@lund.one>
Message-ID: <CALw1_Q3W-FLJwNuSspZ362Uo7Kg3k55rk1knstkn-uNY=tL-YA@mail.gmail.com>

These are going to be significant changes.

Does the subcommittee of three want to consider the other options mentioned
in this thread before I go to the trouble of proposing specific revisions?

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 11:55 AM, Thomas Lund <thomas at lund.one> wrote:

> Hello Kevin,
>
> I agree about education vs. promotion, so please go ahead and suggest
> improvements with the cause rather than us in focus.
>
> cheers,
> Thomas
>
> PS. Even my kids know not to trust or to quote from Wikipedia, which is
> generally a dynamic pile of last-man-on-the-keyboard-self-promotion, so I
> wouldn't stand behind an initiative referring to that. From an academic
> point of view, the loudness war article is useless, but it might not be
> worse than Wikipedia pages in general.
>
>
> On 07/12/2015, at 18.34, Kevin Gross <kevin.gross at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> MLA was founded as a technical expert group. Our work so far has been in
> education and engineering on loudness topics and normalization systems. The
> petition is a piece of non-technical advocacy and I don't know if I'm fully
> comfortable with that. It is possible my concern could be addressed through
> editing to remove some of the stridency. I would be happy to propose some
> changes if you're interested. But I respect comments from Thomas and Bob
> Ludwig and would like to see those addressed too.
>
> Incidentally, I am one of the editors of the
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war article. If there is a
> specific objection to something in that article, I would be happy to try
> and revise it.
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 9:19 AM, Thomas Lund <thomas at lund.one> wrote:
>
>> Hi Bob L and all,
>>
>> I second that. It was also not easy to defend the time spent and the
>> potential customer annoyance caused by engaging in this topic for >15 years
>> at TC, so kindly understand the tact and requirements needed for steaming
>> ahead as a group.
>>
>> best regards,
>> Thomas
>>
>>
>> On 07/12/2015, at 16.52, Robert Ludwig <gatewaybob at mac.com> wrote:
>>
>> HI Bob K.
>>
>> First, clearly I support this initiative, that is never in doubt.
>>
>> I re-read your original email where you wrote: "My proposal is that the
>> MLA become the named organization behind the promulgation of this petition.
>> ?
>>
>> Being that some of our members are in the trenches fighting the Loudness
>> battle in world-class situations, and being that our names are NOT being
>> signed on the petition, perhaps the MLA should NOT be the ?named
>> organization? but ?turnmeup.org?, your own Digido.com
>> <http://digido.com/> site or other.  It won?t change the impact of the
>> petition, in fact perhaps there is more engineer community awareness of
>> those sites than ours.
>>
>> What does the group think?
>> Thanks,
>> Bob L.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 7, 2015, at 9:42 AM, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com> wrote:
>>
>> Guys, Thanks for your thoughts.
>>
>> We'll look at some of your thoughts and see at least if we can improve
>> the links.
>>
>>
>> As far as the title goes. We are activists, passionate about our
>> position. This is a petition written by activists, designed to be put on
>> Change.org <http://change.org/> to get action. It's designed to attract
>> people to sign it. "Say No To A Streaming Loudness War" attracts attention,
>> gets the message across well and is in tune with the idea of what a
>> petition is supposed to do.
>>
>> Do you want this to languish in "We're not activists, we're just
>> apathetic engineers, so sign our petition if you care, but anyway, have a
>> nice day."
>>
>>
>> Be an activist. Support an activist title for this petition!
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob K.
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Bob Katz 407-831-0233 DIGITAL DOMAIN | "There are two kinds of fools,
>> Recording, Mastering, Manufacturing  | One says-this is old and therefore good.
>> Author: *Mastering Audio              *| The other says-this is new and thereforeDigital Domain Website <http://www.digido.com/>               | better."
>>
>> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
>> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.*No more Plaxo, Linked-In, or any of the other time-suckers. Please contact me by regular email. Yes, we have a facebook page and a You-Tube site!*
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://grimmaudio.nl/pipermail/mla_grimmaudio.nl/attachments/20151207/29d5a0c0/attachment.html>

From gatewaybob at mac.com  Tue Dec  8 00:49:51 2015
From: gatewaybob at mac.com (Robert Ludwig)
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2015 18:49:51 -0500
Subject: [MLA] Our Change.org petition
In-Reply-To: <CALw1_Q3W-FLJwNuSspZ362Uo7Kg3k55rk1knstkn-uNY=tL-YA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <FC6A3234-33A3-4774-97E9-599E261EF80F@apple.com>
	<D7F0D4A1-9CA8-4F61-8550-73CAFB8E8EBB@mac.com>
	<71182962-E16B-4055-B516-6BDC9BA355C5@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<56657B95.3000501@digido.com>
	<A89665AB-EE01-4D81-982B-B7151B2E5F0C@lund.one>
	<A26BF46C-1BD1-4ED0-8C46-18AB04C2D68B@grimmaudio.com>
	<56659AE7.5090209@digido.com>
	<2A8B1537-54E8-42A5-999A-9C95E48E08D2@mac.com>
	<1C988CF8-11D6-43B3-9F15-E2B21B848A14@lund.one>
	<CALw1_Q2mJUboWgR3pAkdcC6ZxNU8cA2FYc9KWWH_0uWhpcq4-w@mail.gmail.com>
	<879EE64A-26A3-461A-8242-1EBAADB1E96F@lund.one>
	<CALw1_Q3W-FLJwNuSspZ362Uo7Kg3k55rk1knstkn-uNY=tL-YA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <522ED147-E9D8-4AE8-B0ED-2C8200F494DF@mac.com>

Hi Kevin,
Yes, let?s wait to hear back from Bob K et al.

Kevin, I?m very grateful that someone as knowledgable as you is a Wikipedia editor, thank you for that.
I just re-read the Loudness War article and saw there have been 15 edits in the last month and the ?talk? page is pretty wicked and nasty.

From my point of view, the only statement I would question is: 
"Since CDs were not the primary medium for popular music until the late 1980s, there was little motivation for competitive loudness practices then. CD players were also very expensive and thus commonly exclusive to high-end systems that would show the shortcomings of higher recording levels.?  

Early on, the record companies and CD plants established a rule that they would reject CD masters that had 3 consecutive over-levels.  Even before the invention of the ?look-ahead? brick-wall limiters, my clients almost always wanted me to use every last bit of dynamic range. Some, like the composer John Zorn, discovered that sometimes even heavy clipping was not so audible, so he had me master,  blasting his music into the red and then make a copy at -0.2dB (the resolution of the Sony digital editor) so it would pass the CD plant OVER test!  

All my best,
Bob L.



> On Dec 7, 2015, at 3:15 PM, Kevin Gross <kevin.gross at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> These are going to be significant changes.
> 
> Does the subcommittee of three want to consider the other options mentioned in this thread before I go to the trouble of proposing specific revisions?
> 
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 11:55 AM, Thomas Lund <thomas at lund.one <mailto:thomas at lund.one>> wrote:
> Hello Kevin,
> 
> I agree about education vs. promotion, so please go ahead and suggest improvements with the cause rather than us in focus.
> 
> cheers,
> Thomas
> 
> PS. Even my kids know not to trust or to quote from Wikipedia, which is generally a dynamic pile of last-man-on-the-keyboard-self-promotion, so I wouldn't stand behind an initiative referring to that. From an academic point of view, the loudness war article is useless, but it might not be worse than Wikipedia pages in general.
> 
> 
>> On 07/12/2015, at 18.34, Kevin Gross <kevin.gross at comcast.net <mailto:kevin.gross at comcast.net>> wrote:
>> 
>> MLA was founded as a technical expert group. Our work so far has been in education and engineering on loudness topics and normalization systems. The petition is a piece of non-technical advocacy and I don't know if I'm fully comfortable with that. It is possible my concern could be addressed through editing to remove some of the stridency. I would be happy to propose some changes if you're interested. But I respect comments from Thomas and Bob Ludwig and would like to see those addressed too.
>> 
>> Incidentally, I am one of the editors of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war> article. If there is a specific objection to something in that article, I would be happy to try and revise it.
>> 
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 9:19 AM, Thomas Lund <thomas at lund.one <mailto:thomas at lund.one>> wrote:
>> Hi Bob L and all,
>> 
>> I second that. It was also not easy to defend the time spent and the potential customer annoyance caused by engaging in this topic for >15 years at TC, so kindly understand the tact and requirements needed for steaming ahead as a group.
>> 
>> best regards,
>> Thomas
>> 
>> 
>>> On 07/12/2015, at 16.52, Robert Ludwig <gatewaybob at mac.com <mailto:gatewaybob at mac.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> HI Bob K.
>>> 
>>> First, clearly I support this initiative, that is never in doubt.  
>>> 
>>> I re-read your original email where you wrote: "My proposal is that the MLA become the named organization behind the promulgation of this petition.?
>>> 
>>> Being that some of our members are in the trenches fighting the Loudness battle in world-class situations, and being that our names are NOT being signed on the petition, perhaps the MLA should NOT be the ?named organization? but ?turnmeup.org <http://turnmeup.org/>?, your own Digido.com <http://digido.com/> site or other.  It won?t change the impact of the petition, in fact perhaps there is more engineer community awareness of those sites than ours.
>>> 
>>> What does the group think?
>>> Thanks,
>>> Bob L.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Dec 7, 2015, at 9:42 AM, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com <mailto:bobkatz at digido.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Guys, Thanks for your thoughts.
>>>> 
>>>> We'll look at some of your thoughts and see at least if we can improve the links.
>>>> 
>>>> As far as the title goes. We are activists, passionate about our position. This is a petition written by activists, designed to be put on Change.org <http://change.org/> to get action. It's designed to attract people to sign it. "Say No To A Streaming Loudness War" attracts attention, gets the message across well and is in tune with the idea of what a petition is supposed to do. 
>>>> 
>>>> Do you want this to languish in "We're not activists, we're just apathetic engineers, so sign our petition if you care, but anyway, have a nice day."
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Be an activist. Support an activist title for this petition!
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Bob K.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Bob Katz 407-831-0233 <tel:407-831-0233> DIGITAL DOMAIN | "There are two kinds of fools,
>>>> Recording, Mastering, Manufacturing  | One says-this is old and therefore good.
>>>> Author: Mastering Audio              | The other says-this is new and therefore
>>>> Digital Domain Website <http://www.digido.com/>               | better."
>>>> 
>>>> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
>>>> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>>>> No more Plaxo, Linked-In, or any of the other time-suckers. Please contact me by regular email. Yes, we have a facebook page and a You-Tube site!
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl <http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl>
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> MLA mailing list
>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl <http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl>
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl <http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl>
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl <http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl <http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://grimmaudio.nl/pipermail/mla_grimmaudio.nl/attachments/20151207/d0213850/attachment-0001.html>

From bobkatz at digido.com  Tue Dec  8 05:04:43 2015
From: bobkatz at digido.com (Bob Katz)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 23:04:43 -0500
Subject: [MLA] Our Change.org petition
In-Reply-To: <522ED147-E9D8-4AE8-B0ED-2C8200F494DF@mac.com>
References: <FC6A3234-33A3-4774-97E9-599E261EF80F@apple.com>
	<D7F0D4A1-9CA8-4F61-8550-73CAFB8E8EBB@mac.com>
	<71182962-E16B-4055-B516-6BDC9BA355C5@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<56657B95.3000501@digido.com>
	<A89665AB-EE01-4D81-982B-B7151B2E5F0C@lund.one>
	<A26BF46C-1BD1-4ED0-8C46-18AB04C2D68B@grimmaudio.com>
	<56659AE7.5090209@digido.com>
	<2A8B1537-54E8-42A5-999A-9C95E48E08D2@mac.com>
	<1C988CF8-11D6-43B3-9F15-E2B21B848A14@lund.one>
	<CALw1_Q2mJUboWgR3pAkdcC6ZxNU8cA2FYc9KWWH_0uWhpcq4-w@mail.gmail.com>
	<879EE64A-26A3-461A-8242-1EBAADB1E96F@lund.one>
	<CALw1_Q3W-FLJwNuSspZ362Uo7Kg3k55rk1knstkn-uNY=tL-YA@mail.gmail.com>
	<522ED147-E9D8-4AE8-B0ED-2C8200F494DF@mac.com>
Message-ID: <566656DB.3060307@digido.com>

Guys. It's clear that we're getting nowhere fast. Ian and I have decided 
to go on our own to create and promote this petition. I hope you all 
will support it in your own ways and sign when it is published.

I am very sorry that the MLA has decided not to permit being the sponsor 
of this petition. I felt that this would give some cachet to the MLA. I 
am very sorry that some of you do not believe in the advocacy approach 
as much as I do --- because the time has come for action, not theory, 
not education, but motivating action.

We've been colleagues for a long time, through thick and thin. To any 
other MLA members who feel as strongly as we do and would like to sign 
on to this petition initiative, please write me privately and you are 
welcome to join our  separate group. I hope that we will move mountains 
and I hope you will cheer us on regardless of your choice.

The next plan of our mini group is to present the petition language to 
the ex-president and the current president of the AES. Both of them are 
extremely enthusiastic about this petition, and at least privately, I 
expect them to come on board. Perhaps due to their AES position they may 
not wish to be official members of the advocacy group, but at the very 
least they are on board with the principle, as are many of you already.

By the way, I've written a 1000 word Journal article to be published in 
the next Journal, if not already out. I haven't seen the Dec. edition 
and I think it's in there. It's about the AES Streaming loudness 
recommendations and includes a nice little kicker suggesting that the 
AES itself should devote some time to its promotion and advocacy. So 
even the Editor of the Journal is on board with the idea of advocacy!

Eelco, Ian and I have been working very hard to make this petition an 
inclusive approach. To be honest, I'm quite startled at some of the 
reactions I've seen here. However, I understand some of your wishes to 
maintain the MLA as an educational and informational organization. 
However, you know that I have proposed a petition numerous times and 
been voted down, and rightly so, because it was not time, not yet. But 
now that we have streaming as a dominant force, and a newly-minted 
"forever" streaming loudness war. It is now time to take stronger 
measures than just education.


Wish us well, please,





Bob.


P.S. I'm writing this on behalf of Ian who feels the same as I do. I am 
pretty sure Eelco also will go along so we can remain a group of three, 
but Eelco will have to tell us directly as I have not yet heard his 
feedback on this latest idea.




-- 

Bob Katz 407-831-0233 DIGITAL DOMAIN | "There are two kinds of fools, 
Recording, Mastering, Manufacturing | One says-this is old and therefore 
good. Author: *Mastering Audio *| The other says-this is new and 
thereforeDigital Domain Website <http://www.digido.com/> | better." No 
trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number 
of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.*No more Plaxo, Linked-In, or 
any of the other time-suckers. Please contact me by regular email. Yes, 
we have a facebook page and a You-Tube site!*

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://grimmaudio.nl/pipermail/mla_grimmaudio.nl/attachments/20151207/5d033741/attachment.html>

From thomas at lund.one  Tue Dec  8 10:49:07 2015
From: thomas at lund.one (Thomas Lund)
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 10:49:07 +0100
Subject: [MLA] Our Change.org petition
In-Reply-To: <566656DB.3060307@digido.com>
References: <FC6A3234-33A3-4774-97E9-599E261EF80F@apple.com>
	<D7F0D4A1-9CA8-4F61-8550-73CAFB8E8EBB@mac.com>
	<71182962-E16B-4055-B516-6BDC9BA355C5@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<56657B95.3000501@digido.com>
	<A89665AB-EE01-4D81-982B-B7151B2E5F0C@lund.one>
	<A26BF46C-1BD1-4ED0-8C46-18AB04C2D68B@grimmaudio.com>
	<56659AE7.5090209@digido.com>
	<2A8B1537-54E8-42A5-999A-9C95E48E08D2@mac.com>
	<1C988CF8-11D6-43B3-9F15-E2B21B848A14@lund.one>
	<CALw1_Q2mJUboWgR3pAkdcC6ZxNU8cA2FYc9KWWH_0uWhpcq4-w@mail.gmail.com>
	<879EE64A-26A3-461A-8242-1EBAADB1E96F@lund.one>
	<CALw1_Q3W-FLJwNuSspZ362Uo7Kg3k55rk1knstkn-uNY=tL-YA@mail.gmail.com>
	<522ED147-E9D8-4AE8-B0ED-2C8200F494DF@mac.com>
	<566656DB.3060307@digido.com>
Message-ID: <CA61856D-7CD4-49C7-90C6-F1CB583528BC@lund.one>

Dear Bob,

It?s wonderful you?ve composed the petition you?ve long dreamt of, but there?s no reason to be dramatic when getting criticism you asked for. Savour the comments instead :-)

Streaming loudness really comes down to gain structure in PMPs. Do you think the average Joe would rather sign this petition or another one saying ?Keep music audible on my iPod?? The current wording isn't great for communicating with Joe, so please think about that along with the references.

Personally, I also have WHO, CENELEC and Genelec to consider. Standing behind a loosely founded petition that is bound to annoy manufacturers and audiologists is not an option. Especially not as I'm trying hard to focus on R128 normalization in the new EN and IEC standards (hopefully to be adopted by ITU too). The timing would be terrible and I would be considered biased.

kind regards,
Thomas


> On 08/12/2015, at 05.04, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com> wrote:
> 
> Guys. It's clear that we're getting nowhere fast. Ian and I have decided to go on our own to create and promote this petition. I hope you all will support it in your own ways and sign when it is published. 
> 
> I am very sorry that the MLA has decided not to permit being the sponsor of this petition. I felt that this would give some cachet to the MLA. I am very sorry that some of you do not believe in the advocacy approach as much as I do --- because the time has come for action, not theory, not education, but motivating action. 
> 
> We've been colleagues for a long time, through thick and thin. To any other MLA members who feel as strongly as we do and would like to sign on to this petition initiative, please write me privately and you are welcome to join our  separate group. I hope that we will move mountains and I hope you will cheer us on regardless of your choice.
> 
> The next plan of our mini group is to present the petition language to the ex-president and the current president of the AES. Both of     them are extremely enthusiastic about this petition, and at least privately, I expect them to come on board. Perhaps due to their AES position they may not wish to be official members of the advocacy group, but at the very least they are on board with the principle, as are many of you already.
> 
> By the way, I've written a 1000 word Journal article to be published in the next Journal, if not already out. I haven't seen the Dec. edition and I think it's in there. It's about the AES Streaming loudness recommendations and includes a nice little kicker suggesting that the AES itself should devote some time to its promotion and advocacy. So even the Editor of the Journal is on board with the idea of advocacy!
> 
> Eelco, Ian and I have been working very hard to make this petition an inclusive approach. To be honest, I'm quite startled at some of the reactions I've seen here. However, I understand some of your wishes to maintain the MLA as an educational and informational organization. However, you know that I have proposed a petition numerous times and been voted down, and rightly so, because it was not time, not yet. But now that we have streaming as a dominant force, and a newly-minted "forever" streaming loudness war. It is now time to take stronger measures than just education. 
> 
> 
> Wish us well, please,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bob. 
> 
> 
> P.S. I'm writing this on behalf of Ian who feels the same as I do. I am pretty sure Eelco also will go along so we can remain a group of three, but Eelco will have to tell us directly as I have not yet heard his feedback on this latest idea. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Bob Katz 407-831-0233 DIGITAL DOMAIN | "There are two kinds of fools,
> Recording, Mastering, Manufacturing  | One says-this is old and therefore good.
> Author: Mastering Audio              | The other says-this is new and therefore
> Digital Domain Website <http://www.digido.com/>               | better."
> 
> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
> No more Plaxo, Linked-In, or any of the other time-suckers. Please contact me by regular email. Yes, we have a facebook page and a You-Tube site!
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://grimmaudio.nl/pipermail/mla_grimmaudio.nl/attachments/20151208/0ffd855e/attachment.html>

From thomas at lund.one  Tue Dec 15 21:16:45 2015
From: thomas at lund.one (Thomas Lund)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 20:16:45 -0000
Subject: [MLA] Our Change.org petition
In-Reply-To: <CALw1_Q2mJUboWgR3pAkdcC6ZxNU8cA2FYc9KWWH_0uWhpcq4-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <FC6A3234-33A3-4774-97E9-599E261EF80F@apple.com>
	<D7F0D4A1-9CA8-4F61-8550-73CAFB8E8EBB@mac.com>
	<71182962-E16B-4055-B516-6BDC9BA355C5@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<56657B95.3000501@digido.com>
	<A89665AB-EE01-4D81-982B-B7151B2E5F0C@lund.one>
	<A26BF46C-1BD1-4ED0-8C46-18AB04C2D68B@grimmaudio.com>
	<56659AE7.5090209@digido.com>
	<2A8B1537-54E8-42A5-999A-9C95E48E08D2@mac.com>
	<1C988CF8-11D6-43B3-9F15-E2B21B848A14@lund.one>
	<CALw1_Q2mJUboWgR3pAkdcC6ZxNU8cA2FYc9KWWH_0uWhpcq4-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <199E7508-FEC5-41C9-97F1-C1C498C9A26B@lund.one>

Hi Kevin,

Here are some facts for the Loudness War article so the measurement part reflects what actually happened since 2000. I can add references and more details if you think it's worthwhile. There might be other places on Wikipedia where some of this would also fit.

cheers,
Thomas

***

The foundation we?re relying on today for measuring digital audio is the ITU-R BS.1770 ?loudness? and true-peak level standard. Work began in 2001 after 0 dBFS+ level distortion in converters and lossy codecs had become evident; and the original Leq(RLB) loudness metric was proposed by Gilbert Soloudre from CRC in 2003.

Based on data from subjective listening tests, Leq(RLB) was compared against numerous other algorithms where it did remarkably well. After modification of the frequency weighting, the measurement was made multi-channel (mono to 5.1). CBC, Dolby and TC did the heavy lifting with numerous broadcasters contributing invaluable listening tests.

To make the loudness metric cross-genre friendly, a relative measurement gate was added. This work was carried out 2008 in EBU P/LOUD with Florian Camerer the dynamic chairman, and the improvements were brought back into BS.1770-2. ITU subsequently updated the true-peak metric (BS.1770-3) and added provision for more audio channels, for instance 22.2 (BS.1770-4). Today, BS.1770-4 is used globally to define Loudness Level, True-peak Level and Peak to Loudness Ratio (PLR).

***END



> On 07/12/2015, at 18.34, Kevin Gross <kevin.gross at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> MLA was founded as a technical expert group. Our work so far has been in education and engineering on loudness topics and normalization systems. The petition is a piece of non-technical advocacy and I don't know if I'm fully comfortable with that. It is possible my concern could be addressed through editing to remove some of the stridency. I would be happy to propose some changes if you're interested. But I respect comments from Thomas and Bob Ludwig and would like to see those addressed too.
> 
> Incidentally, I am one of the editors of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war> article. If there is a specific objection to something in that article, I would be happy to try and revise it.
> 
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 9:19 AM, Thomas Lund <thomas at lund.one <mailto:thomas at lund.one>> wrote:
> Hi Bob L and all,
> 
> I second that. It was also not easy to defend the time spent and the potential customer annoyance caused by engaging in this topic for >15 years at TC, so kindly understand the tact and requirements needed for steaming ahead as a group.
> 
> best regards,
> Thomas
> 
> 
>> On 07/12/2015, at 16.52, Robert Ludwig <gatewaybob at mac.com <mailto:gatewaybob at mac.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> HI Bob K.
>> 
>> First, clearly I support this initiative, that is never in doubt.  
>> 
>> I re-read your original email where you wrote: "My proposal is that the MLA become the named organization behind the promulgation of this petition.?
>> 
>> Being that some of our members are in the trenches fighting the Loudness battle in world-class situations, and being that our names are NOT being signed on the petition, perhaps the MLA should NOT be the ?named organization? but ?turnmeup.org <http://turnmeup.org/>?, your own Digido.com <http://digido.com/> site or other.  It won?t change the impact of the petition, in fact perhaps there is more engineer community awareness of those sites than ours.
>> 
>> What does the group think?
>> Thanks,
>> Bob L.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Dec 7, 2015, at 9:42 AM, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com <mailto:bobkatz at digido.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Guys, Thanks for your thoughts.
>>> 
>>> We'll look at some of your thoughts and see at least if we can improve the links.
>>> 
>>> As far as the title goes. We are activists, passionate about our position. This is a petition written by activists, designed to be put on Change.org <http://change.org/> to get action. It's designed to attract people to sign it. "Say No To A Streaming Loudness War" attracts attention, gets the message across well and is in tune with the idea of what a petition is supposed to do. 
>>> 
>>> Do you want this to languish in "We're not activists, we're just apathetic engineers, so sign our petition if you care, but anyway, have a nice day."
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Be an activist. Support an activist title for this petition!
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Bob K.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Bob Katz 407-831-0233 <tel:407-831-0233> DIGITAL DOMAIN | "There are two kinds of fools,
>>> Recording, Mastering, Manufacturing  | One says-this is old and therefore good.
>>> Author: Mastering Audio              | The other says-this is new and therefore
>>> Digital Domain Website <http://www.digido.com/>               | better."
>>> 
>>> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
>>> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>>> No more Plaxo, Linked-In, or any of the other time-suckers. Please contact me by regular email. Yes, we have a facebook page and a You-Tube site!
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> MLA mailing list
>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl <http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl>
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl <http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl <http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://grimmaudio.nl/pipermail/mla_grimmaudio.nl/attachments/20151215/7c4e86e8/attachment-0001.html>

From kevin.gross at comcast.net  Wed Dec 16 05:29:47 2015
From: kevin.gross at comcast.net (Kevin Gross)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 04:29:47 -0000
Subject: [MLA] Our Change.org petition
In-Reply-To: <522ED147-E9D8-4AE8-B0ED-2C8200F494DF@mac.com>
References: <FC6A3234-33A3-4774-97E9-599E261EF80F@apple.com>
	<D7F0D4A1-9CA8-4F61-8550-73CAFB8E8EBB@mac.com>
	<71182962-E16B-4055-B516-6BDC9BA355C5@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<56657B95.3000501@digido.com>
	<A89665AB-EE01-4D81-982B-B7151B2E5F0C@lund.one>
	<A26BF46C-1BD1-4ED0-8C46-18AB04C2D68B@grimmaudio.com>
	<56659AE7.5090209@digido.com>
	<2A8B1537-54E8-42A5-999A-9C95E48E08D2@mac.com>
	<1C988CF8-11D6-43B3-9F15-E2B21B848A14@lund.one>
	<CALw1_Q2mJUboWgR3pAkdcC6ZxNU8cA2FYc9KWWH_0uWhpcq4-w@mail.gmail.com>
	<879EE64A-26A3-461A-8242-1EBAADB1E96F@lund.one>
	<CALw1_Q3W-FLJwNuSspZ362Uo7Kg3k55rk1knstkn-uNY=tL-YA@mail.gmail.com>
	<522ED147-E9D8-4AE8-B0ED-2C8200F494DF@mac.com>
Message-ID: <CALw1_Q2f4g9+unQ7W0X2RyucBprFpv3GTMk0RDOGLJsr4Ygg8w@mail.gmail.com>

Bob, is there any published article you're aware of where you described
this experience?

The 1980s section in the Wikipedia article definitely needs more sources to
support assertions made there. This source describes the 1980s as an audio
utopia of sorts - http://www.cdmasteringservices.com/dynamicdeath.htm. In
this source, Bob Katz uses 1980s material as a reference for unsquashed
masters - http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb14/articles/loudness-war.htm.

I found a reference for the 3 consecutive over criteria and could
incorporate this into the Wikipedia article but this would support the
existing audio utopia in the 1980s narrative -
http://www.recordingmag.com/resources/resourceDetail/246.html. Your
objection to this section is that this narrative does not match your
experience - the CD was not audio utopia in the early to mid 1980s. Lots of
releases were clipped in a way that circumvented QC at the plants. The
examples from the 1980s we're using to support the utopia narrative are
cherrypicked.


On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 4:49 PM, Robert Ludwig <gatewaybob at mac.com> wrote:

> Hi Kevin,
> Yes, let?s wait to hear back from Bob K et al.
>
> Kevin, I?m very grateful that someone as knowledgable as you is a
> Wikipedia editor, thank you for that.
> I just re-read the Loudness War article and saw there have been 15 edits
> in the last month and the ?talk? page is pretty wicked and nasty.
>
> From my point of view, the only statement I would question is:
> "Since CDs were not the primary medium for popular music until the late
> 1980s, there was little motivation for competitive loudness practices then.
> CD players were also very expensive and thus commonly exclusive to high-end
> systems that would show the shortcomings of higher recording levels.?
>
> Early on, the record companies and CD plants established a rule that they
> would reject CD masters that had 3 consecutive over-levels.  Even before
> the invention of the ?look-ahead? brick-wall limiters, my clients almost
> *always* wanted me to use every last bit of dynamic range. Some, like the
> composer John Zorn, discovered that sometimes even heavy clipping was not
> so audible, so he had me master,  blasting his music into the red and then
> make a copy at -0.2dB (the resolution of the Sony digital editor) so it
> would pass the CD plant OVER test!
>
> All my best,
> Bob L.
>
>
>
> On Dec 7, 2015, at 3:15 PM, Kevin Gross <kevin.gross at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> These are going to be significant changes.
>
> Does the subcommittee of three want to consider the other options
> mentioned in this thread before I go to the trouble of proposing specific
> revisions?
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 11:55 AM, Thomas Lund <thomas at lund.one> wrote:
>
>> Hello Kevin,
>>
>> I agree about education vs. promotion, so please go ahead and suggest
>> improvements with the cause rather than us in focus.
>>
>> cheers,
>> Thomas
>>
>> PS. Even my kids know not to trust or to quote from Wikipedia, which is
>> generally a dynamic pile of last-man-on-the-keyboard-self-promotion, so I
>> wouldn't stand behind an initiative referring to that. From an academic
>> point of view, the loudness war article is useless, but it might not be
>> worse than Wikipedia pages in general.
>>
>>
>> On 07/12/2015, at 18.34, Kevin Gross <kevin.gross at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> MLA was founded as a technical expert group. Our work so far has been in
>> education and engineering on loudness topics and normalization systems. The
>> petition is a piece of non-technical advocacy and I don't know if I'm fully
>> comfortable with that. It is possible my concern could be addressed through
>> editing to remove some of the stridency. I would be happy to propose some
>> changes if you're interested. But I respect comments from Thomas and Bob
>> Ludwig and would like to see those addressed too.
>>
>> Incidentally, I am one of the editors of the
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war article. If there is a
>> specific objection to something in that article, I would be happy to try
>> and revise it.
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 9:19 AM, Thomas Lund <thomas at lund.one> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Bob L and all,
>>>
>>> I second that. It was also not easy to defend the time spent and the
>>> potential customer annoyance caused by engaging in this topic for >15 years
>>> at TC, so kindly understand the tact and requirements needed for steaming
>>> ahead as a group.
>>>
>>> best regards,
>>> Thomas
>>>
>>>
>>> On 07/12/2015, at 16.52, Robert Ludwig <gatewaybob at mac.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> HI Bob K.
>>>
>>> First, clearly I support this initiative, that is never in doubt.
>>>
>>> I re-read your original email where you wrote: "My proposal is that the
>>> MLA become the named organization behind the promulgation of this petition.
>>> ?
>>>
>>> Being that some of our members are in the trenches fighting the Loudness
>>> battle in world-class situations, and being that our names are NOT being
>>> signed on the petition, perhaps the MLA should NOT be the ?named
>>> organization? but ?turnmeup.org?, your own Digido.com
>>> <http://digido.com/> site or other.  It won?t change the impact of the
>>> petition, in fact perhaps there is more engineer community awareness of
>>> those sites than ours.
>>>
>>> What does the group think?
>>> Thanks,
>>> Bob L.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Dec 7, 2015, at 9:42 AM, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Guys, Thanks for your thoughts.
>>>
>>> We'll look at some of your thoughts and see at least if we can improve
>>> the links.
>>>
>>>
>>> As far as the title goes. We are activists, passionate about our
>>> position. This is a petition written by activists, designed to be put on
>>> Change.org <http://change.org/> to get action. It's designed to attract
>>> people to sign it. "Say No To A Streaming Loudness War" attracts attention,
>>> gets the message across well and is in tune with the idea of what a
>>> petition is supposed to do.
>>>
>>> Do you want this to languish in "We're not activists, we're just
>>> apathetic engineers, so sign our petition if you care, but anyway, have a
>>> nice day."
>>>
>>>
>>> Be an activist. Support an activist title for this petition!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bob K.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Bob Katz 407-831-0233 DIGITAL DOMAIN | "There are two kinds of fools,
>>> Recording, Mastering, Manufacturing  | One says-this is old and therefore good.
>>> Author: *Mastering Audio              *| The other says-this is new and thereforeDigital Domain Website <http://www.digido.com/>               | better."
>>>
>>> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
>>> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.*No more Plaxo, Linked-In, or any of the other time-suckers. Please contact me by regular email. Yes, we have a facebook page and a You-Tube site!*
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> MLA mailing list
>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> MLA mailing list
>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> MLA mailing list
>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://grimmaudio.nl/pipermail/mla_grimmaudio.nl/attachments/20151216/8b295dc4/attachment.html>

From kevin.gross at avanw.com  Wed Dec 16 05:49:26 2015
From: kevin.gross at avanw.com (Kevin Gross)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 04:49:26 -0000
Subject: [MLA] Our Change.org petition
In-Reply-To: <199E7508-FEC5-41C9-97F1-C1C498C9A26B@lund.one>
References: <FC6A3234-33A3-4774-97E9-599E261EF80F@apple.com>
	<D7F0D4A1-9CA8-4F61-8550-73CAFB8E8EBB@mac.com>
	<71182962-E16B-4055-B516-6BDC9BA355C5@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<56657B95.3000501@digido.com>
	<A89665AB-EE01-4D81-982B-B7151B2E5F0C@lund.one>
	<A26BF46C-1BD1-4ED0-8C46-18AB04C2D68B@grimmaudio.com>
	<56659AE7.5090209@digido.com>
	<2A8B1537-54E8-42A5-999A-9C95E48E08D2@mac.com>
	<1C988CF8-11D6-43B3-9F15-E2B21B848A14@lund.one>
	<CALw1_Q2mJUboWgR3pAkdcC6ZxNU8cA2FYc9KWWH_0uWhpcq4-w@mail.gmail.com>
	<199E7508-FEC5-41C9-97F1-C1C498C9A26B@lund.one>
Message-ID: <CALw1_Q3Pm7BXC3+3bm=8DFnYoMMdKa8fHzHR1BFEie4=_9tKGw@mail.gmail.com>

I have edited slightly and added your material to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness#Measurement

It would be helpful to have one or more references specifically on Leq(RLB)
and further development of BS.1770

Kevin Gross - AVA Networks

On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 1:16 PM, Thomas Lund <thomas at lund.one> wrote:

> Hi Kevin,
>
> Here are some facts for the Loudness War article so the measurement part
> reflects what actually happened since 2000. I can add references and more
> details if you think it's worthwhile. There might be other places on
> Wikipedia where some of this would also fit.
>
> cheers,
> Thomas
>
> ***
>
> The foundation we?re relying on today for measuring digital audio is the
> ITU-R BS.1770 ?loudness? and true-peak level standard. Work began in 2001
> after 0 dBFS+ level distortion in converters and lossy codecs had become
> evident; and the original Leq(RLB) loudness metric was proposed by Gilbert
> Soloudre from CRC in 2003.
>
> Based on data from subjective listening tests, Leq(RLB) was compared
> against numerous other algorithms where it did remarkably well. After
> modification of the frequency weighting, the measurement was made
> multi-channel (mono to 5.1). CBC, Dolby and TC did the heavy lifting with
> numerous broadcasters contributing invaluable listening tests.
>
> To make the loudness metric cross-genre friendly, a relative measurement
> gate was added. This work was carried out 2008 in EBU P/LOUD with Florian
> Camerer the dynamic chairman, and the improvements were brought back into
> BS.1770-2. ITU subsequently updated the true-peak metric (BS.1770-3) and
> added provision for more audio channels, for instance 22.2 (BS.1770-4).
> Today, BS.1770-4 is used globally to define Loudness Level, True-peak Level
> and Peak to Loudness Ratio (PLR).
>
> ***END
>
>
>
> On 07/12/2015, at 18.34, Kevin Gross <kevin.gross at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> MLA was founded as a technical expert group. Our work so far has been in
> education and engineering on loudness topics and normalization systems. The
> petition is a piece of non-technical advocacy and I don't know if I'm fully
> comfortable with that. It is possible my concern could be addressed through
> editing to remove some of the stridency. I would be happy to propose some
> changes if you're interested. But I respect comments from Thomas and Bob
> Ludwig and would like to see those addressed too.
>
> Incidentally, I am one of the editors of the
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war article. If there is a
> specific objection to something in that article, I would be happy to try
> and revise it.
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 9:19 AM, Thomas Lund <thomas at lund.one> wrote:
>
>> Hi Bob L and all,
>>
>> I second that. It was also not easy to defend the time spent and the
>> potential customer annoyance caused by engaging in this topic for >15 years
>> at TC, so kindly understand the tact and requirements needed for steaming
>> ahead as a group.
>>
>> best regards,
>> Thomas
>>
>>
>> On 07/12/2015, at 16.52, Robert Ludwig <gatewaybob at mac.com> wrote:
>>
>> HI Bob K.
>>
>> First, clearly I support this initiative, that is never in doubt.
>>
>> I re-read your original email where you wrote: "My proposal is that the
>> MLA become the named organization behind the promulgation of this petition.
>> ?
>>
>> Being that some of our members are in the trenches fighting the Loudness
>> battle in world-class situations, and being that our names are NOT being
>> signed on the petition, perhaps the MLA should NOT be the ?named
>> organization? but ?turnmeup.org?, your own Digido.com
>> <http://digido.com/> site or other.  It won?t change the impact of the
>> petition, in fact perhaps there is more engineer community awareness of
>> those sites than ours.
>>
>> What does the group think?
>> Thanks,
>> Bob L.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 7, 2015, at 9:42 AM, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com> wrote:
>>
>> Guys, Thanks for your thoughts.
>>
>> We'll look at some of your thoughts and see at least if we can improve
>> the links.
>>
>>
>> As far as the title goes. We are activists, passionate about our
>> position. This is a petition written by activists, designed to be put on
>> Change.org <http://change.org/> to get action. It's designed to attract
>> people to sign it. "Say No To A Streaming Loudness War" attracts attention,
>> gets the message across well and is in tune with the idea of what a
>> petition is supposed to do.
>>
>> Do you want this to languish in "We're not activists, we're just
>> apathetic engineers, so sign our petition if you care, but anyway, have a
>> nice day."
>>
>>
>> Be an activist. Support an activist title for this petition!
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob K.
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Bob Katz 407-831-0233 DIGITAL DOMAIN | "There are two kinds of fools,
>> Recording, Mastering, Manufacturing  | One says-this is old and therefore good.
>> Author: *Mastering Audio              *| The other says-this is new and thereforeDigital Domain Website <http://www.digido.com/>               | better."
>>
>> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
>> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.*No more Plaxo, Linked-In, or any of the other time-suckers. Please contact me by regular email. Yes, we have a facebook page and a You-Tube site!*
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> MLA mailing list
> MLA at grimmaudio.nl
> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl
>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://grimmaudio.nl/pipermail/mla_grimmaudio.nl/attachments/20151216/aa22fce4/attachment.html>

From thomas at lund.one  Wed Dec 16 16:41:22 2015
From: thomas at lund.one (Thomas Lund)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 15:41:22 -0000
Subject: [MLA] Our Change.org petition
In-Reply-To: <CALw1_Q3Pm7BXC3+3bm=8DFnYoMMdKa8fHzHR1BFEie4=_9tKGw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <FC6A3234-33A3-4774-97E9-599E261EF80F@apple.com>
	<D7F0D4A1-9CA8-4F61-8550-73CAFB8E8EBB@mac.com>
	<71182962-E16B-4055-B516-6BDC9BA355C5@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<56657B95.3000501@digido.com>
	<A89665AB-EE01-4D81-982B-B7151B2E5F0C@lund.one>
	<A26BF46C-1BD1-4ED0-8C46-18AB04C2D68B@grimmaudio.com>
	<56659AE7.5090209@digido.com>
	<2A8B1537-54E8-42A5-999A-9C95E48E08D2@mac.com>
	<1C988CF8-11D6-43B3-9F15-E2B21B848A14@lund.one>
	<CALw1_Q2mJUboWgR3pAkdcC6ZxNU8cA2FYc9KWWH_0uWhpcq4-w@mail.gmail.com>
	<199E7508-FEC5-41C9-97F1-C1C498C9A26B@lund.one>
	<CALw1_Q3Pm7BXC3+3bm=8DFnYoMMdKa8fHzHR1BFEie4=_9tKGw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D2BC816C-1680-42EA-AC0F-8C9977375739@lund.one>

I will dig up the references. Maybe you in the meantime could think about how the Loudness War page (and other Wiki pages, especially the ones referring to people that are still alive) is made more factual and less self-promotional.

Wiki loudness-normalization is badly needed :-)

cheers,
Thomas


> On 16/12/2015, at 05.46, Kevin Gross <kevin.gross at avanw.com> wrote:
> 
> I have edited slightly and added your material to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness#Measurement <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness#Measurement>
> 
> It would be helpful to have one or more references specifically on Leq(RLB) and further development of BS.1770
> 
> Kevin Gross - AVA Networks
> 
> On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 1:16 PM, Thomas Lund <thomas at lund.one <mailto:thomas at lund.one>> wrote:
> Hi Kevin,
> 
> Here are some facts for the Loudness War article so the measurement part reflects what actually happened since 2000. I can add references and more details if you think it's worthwhile. There might be other places on Wikipedia where some of this would also fit.
> 
> cheers,
> Thomas
> 
> ***
> 
> The foundation we?re relying on today for measuring digital audio is the ITU-R BS.1770 ?loudness? and true-peak level standard. Work began in 2001 after 0 dBFS+ level distortion in converters and lossy codecs had become evident; and the original Leq(RLB) loudness metric was proposed by Gilbert Soloudre from CRC in 2003.
> 
> Based on data from subjective listening tests, Leq(RLB) was compared against numerous other algorithms where it did remarkably well. After modification of the frequency weighting, the measurement was made multi-channel (mono to 5.1). CBC, Dolby and TC did the heavy lifting with numerous broadcasters contributing invaluable listening tests.
> 
> To make the loudness metric cross-genre friendly, a relative measurement gate was added. This work was carried out 2008 in EBU P/LOUD with Florian Camerer the dynamic chairman, and the improvements were brought back into BS.1770-2. ITU subsequently updated the true-peak metric (BS.1770-3) and added provision for more audio channels, for instance 22.2 (BS.1770-4). Today, BS.1770-4 is used globally to define Loudness Level, True-peak Level and Peak to Loudness Ratio (PLR).
> 
> ***END
> 
> 
> 
>> On 07/12/2015, at 18.34, Kevin Gross <kevin.gross at comcast.net <mailto:kevin.gross at comcast.net>> wrote:
>> 
>> MLA was founded as a technical expert group. Our work so far has been in education and engineering on loudness topics and normalization systems. The petition is a piece of non-technical advocacy and I don't know if I'm fully comfortable with that. It is possible my concern could be addressed through editing to remove some of the stridency. I would be happy to propose some changes if you're interested. But I respect comments from Thomas and Bob Ludwig and would like to see those addressed too.
>> 
>> Incidentally, I am one of the editors of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war> article. If there is a specific objection to something in that article, I would be happy to try and revise it.
>> 
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 9:19 AM, Thomas Lund <thomas at lund.one <mailto:thomas at lund.one>> wrote:
>> Hi Bob L and all,
>> 
>> I second that. It was also not easy to defend the time spent and the potential customer annoyance caused by engaging in this topic for >15 years at TC, so kindly understand the tact and requirements needed for steaming ahead as a group.
>> 
>> best regards,
>> Thomas
>> 
>> 
>>> On 07/12/2015, at 16.52, Robert Ludwig <gatewaybob at mac.com <mailto:gatewaybob at mac.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> HI Bob K.
>>> 
>>> First, clearly I support this initiative, that is never in doubt.  
>>> 
>>> I re-read your original email where you wrote: "My proposal is that the MLA become the named organization behind the promulgation of this petition.?
>>> 
>>> Being that some of our members are in the trenches fighting the Loudness battle in world-class situations, and being that our names are NOT being signed on the petition, perhaps the MLA should NOT be the ?named organization? but ?turnmeup.org <http://turnmeup.org/>?, your own Digido.com <http://digido.com/> site or other.  It won?t change the impact of the petition, in fact perhaps there is more engineer community awareness of those sites than ours.
>>> 
>>> What does the group think?
>>> Thanks,
>>> Bob L.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Dec 7, 2015, at 9:42 AM, Bob Katz <bobkatz at digido.com <mailto:bobkatz at digido.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Guys, Thanks for your thoughts.
>>>> 
>>>> We'll look at some of your thoughts and see at least if we can improve the links.
>>>> 
>>>> As far as the title goes. We are activists, passionate about our position. This is a petition written by activists, designed to be put on Change.org <http://change.org/> to get action. It's designed to attract people to sign it. "Say No To A Streaming Loudness War" attracts attention, gets the message across well and is in tune with the idea of what a petition is supposed to do. 
>>>> 
>>>> Do you want this to languish in "We're not activists, we're just apathetic engineers, so sign our petition if you care, but anyway, have a nice day."
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Be an activist. Support an activist title for this petition!
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Bob K.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Bob Katz 407-831-0233 <tel:407-831-0233> DIGITAL DOMAIN | "There are two kinds of fools,
>>>> Recording, Mastering, Manufacturing  | One says-this is old and therefore good.
>>>> Author: Mastering Audio              | The other says-this is new and therefore
>>>> Digital Domain Website <http://www.digido.com/>               | better."
>>>> 
>>>> No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number
>>>> of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>>>> No more Plaxo, Linked-In, or any of the other time-suckers. Please contact me by regular email. Yes, we have a facebook page and a You-Tube site!
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> MLA mailing list
>>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl <http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl>
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> MLA mailing list
>>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl <http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl>
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl <http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl>
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLA mailing list
>> MLA at grimmaudio.nl <mailto:MLA at grimmaudio.nl>
>> http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl <http://grimmaudio.nl/mailman/listinfo/mla_grimmaudio.nl>
> 
> 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://grimmaudio.nl/pipermail/mla_grimmaudio.nl/attachments/20151216/5a1022bb/attachment-0001.html>

From eelco at grimmaudio.com  Tue Dec 29 01:16:17 2015
From: eelco at grimmaudio.com (Grimm | Eelco)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 01:16:17 +0100
Subject: [MLA] Our Change.org petition
In-Reply-To: <D41AFC13-46C2-45E6-9982-DA1A8EA3537A@fairytapes.nl>
References: <FC6A3234-33A3-4774-97E9-599E261EF80F@apple.com>
	<D7F0D4A1-9CA8-4F61-8550-73CAFB8E8EBB@mac.com>
	<71182962-E16B-4055-B516-6BDC9BA355C5@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<56657B95.3000501@digido.com>
	<A89665AB-EE01-4D81-982B-B7151B2E5F0C@lund.one>
	<D41AFC13-46C2-45E6-9982-DA1A8EA3537A@fairytapes.nl>
Message-ID: <A467B082-E454-4316-A805-133DF51FEB2E@grimmaudio.com>

Dear friends,

I just read that the honorable Royal Dutch Academy of Science (https://www.knaw.nl/en) has rewarded the important yearly "Erasmus" price of ?150000 to Wikipedia. Their report says "Wikipedia receives the prize because it has promoted the dissemination of knowledge through a comprehensive and universally accessible encyclopaedia." http://www.erasmusprijs.org/?lang=en&page=Erasmusprijs.

Although I agree with the comment from Thomas and Bob Ludwig (and for instance Jaron Lanier) on Wikipedia, I guess that if a prestiguous scientific institution like the KNAW supports Wikipedia, it does not hurt to use a link in a change.org petition. 

Still, we need to make sure the page is in good shape. With Kevin being one of its editors that should be no problem. So please, if anyone sees an error on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war, let's make sure to solve it.

There will be a new title soon for the petition, we will let you know. And we are working on finding a proper supporting platform (in stead of MLA). 

All the best for the last days of 2015,
Eelco



From eelco at grimmaudio.com  Tue Dec 29 09:51:03 2015
From: eelco at grimmaudio.com (Grimm | Eelco)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 09:51:03 +0100
Subject: [MLA] Our Change.org petition
In-Reply-To: <A467B082-E454-4316-A805-133DF51FEB2E@grimmaudio.com>
References: <FC6A3234-33A3-4774-97E9-599E261EF80F@apple.com>
	<D7F0D4A1-9CA8-4F61-8550-73CAFB8E8EBB@mac.com>
	<71182962-E16B-4055-B516-6BDC9BA355C5@mastering-media.co.uk>
	<56657B95.3000501@digido.com>
	<A89665AB-EE01-4D81-982B-B7151B2E5F0C@lund.one>
	<D41AFC13-46C2-45E6-9982-DA1A8EA3537A@fairytapes.nl>
	<A467B082-E454-4316-A805-133DF51FEB2E@grimmaudio.com>
Message-ID: <4969EDA7-D7D2-4F0B-A424-C6D9373C5B4D@grimmaudio.com>

Dear friends,

I just read that the honorable Royal Dutch Academy of Science (https://www.knaw.nl/en) has rewarded the important yearly "Erasmus" price of ?150000 to Wikipedia. Their report says "Wikipedia receives the prize because it has promoted the dissemination of knowledge through a comprehensive and universally accessible encyclopaedia." http://www.erasmusprijs.org/?lang=en&page=Erasmusprijs.

Although I agree with the comment from Thomas and Bob Ludwig (and for instance Jaron Lanier) on Wikipedia, I guess that if a prestiguous scientific institution like the KNAW supports Wikipedia, it does not hurt to use a link in a change.org petition. 

Still, we need to make sure the page is in good shape. With Kevin being one of its editors that should be no problem. So please, if anyone sees an error on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war, let's make sure to solve it.

There will be a new title soon for the petition, we will let you know. And we are working on finding a proper supporting platform (in stead of MLA). 

All the best for the last days of 2015,
Eelco

PS I sent this message before but the MLA reflector did not respond. I'm sorry if you received it more than once.

